"Murder...!" cry

[Wickerman]

Who said she was sleeping?

[GUT]

Who said she was sleeping?

Who said it came from her room???

[richardnunweek]

Hi
How many times has the average person shouted out in their sleep?
Lets put forward a scenario .
Mary Kelly previously had a dream [ most likely many did during that period about Murder] she dreamt she was being murdered, it shook her up, she informed her friend Lottie, and I would suggest other people also.
Obviously conclusion that she had this dream whilst sleeping on the bed in her room.
Jack the Ripper , had always killed on the street, yet on this occasion had altered his M/O.
Did Mary tell her killer beforehand, that she had a dream that she was being murdered, and her killer decided that he would make her dream come true, on the very place she had dreamt it.
If this is true, then its almost certain that she knew her attacker, and brings Barnett, Fleming, and if the latter was not the ''other Joe'' , that unknown person into the major suspect list.
Regards Richard.

[jason_c]

Not sure about literature, but it becomes apparent that cries of murder weren't uncommon when you read papers if the day, often with nothing of consequence being reported.

I always thought that the mention of a cry of murder was a generic description of a cry indicating a murderous attack - like hearing a cry for help does not necessarily mean hearing the actual word "help".

However, as GUT and Abby Normal have pointed out, it was in fact common for persons being physically attacked to cry out "murder".

Thanks for the replies. Crying "murder" does still sound a bit off, but im prepared to admit we are not currently holding a Victorian mindset. I wonder if the cry indicates Kelly thought herself in danger, but not necesarily mortal danger. Unless she had nerves of steel a bloodcurdling cry from Kelly would be more natural if she felt in mortal danger. The cry of murder perhaps indicates a serious attack but (if this doesnt sound too irreconcilable with her supposed cry of "murder") not actual murder. A flash of a knife in front of her would warn her of danger, and require from her a desperate cry for attention, but it does perhaps hint at someone not yet experiencing downright terror imo. I suspect I personally would have screamed in Fay Wray fashion if I believed JtR was coming towards me with a knife. Kelly perhaps feared a robbery or assault was underway against her but the cry "murder!" would be more likely get attention from those nearby.

[Robert]

I suspect that in those days, even in the slums, murder carried with it connotations of evil, horror and solemnity that we are simply not attuned to today. Let's face it, for all our preening ourselves about a 'compassionate society' we can put a film on and watch a 'murder' any day of the week.

[Wickerman]

Thanks for the replies. Crying "murder" does still sound a bit off, but im prepared to admit we are not currently holding a Victorian mindset. I wonder if the cry indicates Kelly thought herself in danger, but not necesarily mortal danger. Unless she had nerves of steel a bloodcurdling cry from Kelly would be more natural if she felt in mortal danger. The cry of murder perhaps indicates a serious attack but (if this doesnt sound too irreconcilable with her supposed cry of "murder") not actual murder. A flash of a knife in front of her would warn her of danger, and require from her a desperate cry for attention, but it does perhaps hint at someone not yet experiencing downright terror imo. I suspect I personally would have screamed in Fay Wray fashion if I believed JtR was coming towards me with a knife. Kelly perhaps feared a robbery or assault was underway against her but the cry "murder!" would be more likely get attention from those nearby.

Who said it came from her room???

It seems the Daily News was the only source which mentioned a "row in the court", just before the cry of "murder".

Sarah Lewis said:
" I heard a female voice shout "Murder!" It seemed like a young woman's voice. There was only one scream. I did not take any notice, especially as a short time before there had been a row in the court."

So, was this cry of "murder" something to do with the row in the court?

[DJA]

Reckon "Oh" was shock at Jack producing a blade

- being a pause

then the first word that made sense in the circumstances, "Murder!".

[c.d.]

The basic problem with the whole Oh Murder! business is that we don't know if this information was conveyed to the police by the tenants before of after they had been told that Mary had been killed. If the latter, it is pretty easy to see how that could affect what they thought they heard.

c.d.

[DJA]

Confident it was after.

[c.d.]

That's what I would expect. So now we have a situation where they heard something that might have sounded like murder and immediately connected it with the murder thus influencing what they thought they heard.

c.d.

[DJA]

No argument there.
Familiar with witnesses who have allowed themselves to be led.
Nonetheless,the cry fits the time frame very well.

[Varqm]

But how do you get the date wrong, when it was the same day?
The murder happened Friday morning, Maxwell was questioned Friday afternoon.

Wrong Day?

Dew also said Hutchinson had the day mixed-up.Police way of saying "news seekers"?The police eventually disregarded Maxwell,starting at the inquest or before,
where she was warned.Why no corroboration from anyone in Britannia? As it stood Maxwell was uncorroborated.The police were more experienced at and aware of publicity seekers,there were lots of false reports/gossip at that time,to make that judgment.
Also if "Oh Murder" was common or not and it's relevance.Weighing everything in, 3-4 AM murder was much more believable/real.

[Wickerman]

Dew also said Hutchinson had the day mixed-up.

True, but this is probably Dew's faulty memory again. Hutchinson had corroboration in the testimony of Sarah Lewis. So Hutch was definitely there that morning, and both Hutch and Lewis saw a 'couple' go up the court.

The police eventually disregarded Maxwell,starting at the inquest or before,
where she was warned.Why no corroboration from anyone in Britannia? As it stood Maxwell was uncorroborated.

Maxwell was corroborated, in part, by Maurice Lewis. at least to the extent that Kelly was alive after 8:00 am that Friday morning.
If you recall, inquiries were made at all the beer shops and pubs in the area to see if anyone remembered Kelly with that blotchy character, and the pot of beer.
That investigation turned up nothing either. Does that mean the Cox's evidence is also defective, that there was no "blotchy"?
The rules we use to dismiss some arguments can also work against us.

Weighing everything in, 3-4 AM murder was much more believable/real.

That much I agree with.
As firm as I am in my belief that the police much preferred to accept Dr. Bond's estimated time of death, in part supported by Cox's testimony, I also believe Dr. Bond was wrong.
Kelly was alive until 3:00 am, but not much later.

[Michael W Richards]

Who said she was sleeping?

I cant believe that this isn't an obvious conclusion....she came in barely able to speak at 11:45, she sang off and on for over an hour, and by 1:30 her room was dark and quiet. Not one witness said they saw her leave her room. Yes, we have witnesses that said they saw her after that, none of which we have any proof knew Mary Kelly at all. And at least one who was warned at the Inquest that her evidence is contrary to other evidence.

[Michael W Richards]

Who said it came from her room???

"As if from my door" from the Witness in the court, and "as if from the courtyard" by then witness upstairs. If she opened her door to see who was knocking...the knock that woke diddles?...then you have your answer.

Anyone else claim to have made that call? Anyone else who could not have claimed the call?