"Murder...!" cry

[DJA]

Confident it was after.

[c.d.]

The basic problem with the whole Oh Murder! business is that we don't know if this information was conveyed to the police by the tenants before of after they had been told that Mary had been killed. If the latter, it is pretty easy to see how that could affect what they thought they heard.

c.d.

[DJA]

Reckon "Oh" was shock at Jack producing a blade

- being a pause

then the first word that made sense in the circumstances, "Murder!".

[Wickerman]

Thanks for the replies. Crying "murder" does still sound a bit off, but im prepared to admit we are not currently holding a Victorian mindset. I wonder if the cry indicates Kelly thought herself in danger, but not necesarily mortal danger. Unless she had nerves of steel a bloodcurdling cry from Kelly would be more natural if she felt in mortal danger. The cry of murder perhaps indicates a serious attack but (if this doesnt sound too irreconcilable with her supposed cry of "murder") not actual murder. A flash of a knife in front of her would warn her of danger, and require from her a desperate cry for attention, but it does perhaps hint at someone not yet experiencing downright terror imo. I suspect I personally would have screamed in Fay Wray fashion if I believed JtR was coming towards me with a knife. Kelly perhaps feared a robbery or assault was underway against her but the cry "murder!" would be more likely get attention from those nearby.

Who said it came from her room???

It seems the Daily News was the only source which mentioned a "row in the court", just before the cry of "murder".

Sarah Lewis said:
" I heard a female voice shout "Murder!" It seemed like a young woman's voice. There was only one scream. I did not take any notice, especially as a short time before there had been a row in the court."

So, was this cry of "murder" something to do with the row in the court?

[Robert]

I suspect that in those days, even in the slums, murder carried with it connotations of evil, horror and solemnity that we are simply not attuned to today. Let's face it, for all our preening ourselves about a 'compassionate society' we can put a film on and watch a 'murder' any day of the week.

[jason_c]

Not sure about literature, but it becomes apparent that cries of murder weren't uncommon when you read papers if the day, often with nothing of consequence being reported.

I always thought that the mention of a cry of murder was a generic description of a cry indicating a murderous attack - like hearing a cry for help does not necessarily mean hearing the actual word "help".

However, as GUT and Abby Normal have pointed out, it was in fact common for persons being physically attacked to cry out "murder".

Thanks for the replies. Crying "murder" does still sound a bit off, but im prepared to admit we are not currently holding a Victorian mindset. I wonder if the cry indicates Kelly thought herself in danger, but not necesarily mortal danger. Unless she had nerves of steel a bloodcurdling cry from Kelly would be more natural if she felt in mortal danger. The cry of murder perhaps indicates a serious attack but (if this doesnt sound too irreconcilable with her supposed cry of "murder") not actual murder. A flash of a knife in front of her would warn her of danger, and require from her a desperate cry for attention, but it does perhaps hint at someone not yet experiencing downright terror imo. I suspect I personally would have screamed in Fay Wray fashion if I believed JtR was coming towards me with a knife. Kelly perhaps feared a robbery or assault was underway against her but the cry "murder!" would be more likely get attention from those nearby.

[richardnunweek]

Hi
How many times has the average person shouted out in their sleep?
Lets put forward a scenario .
Mary Kelly previously had a dream [ most likely many did during that period about Murder] she dreamt she was being murdered, it shook her up, she informed her friend Lottie, and I would suggest other people also.
Obviously conclusion that she had this dream whilst sleeping on the bed in her room.
Jack the Ripper , had always killed on the street, yet on this occasion had altered his M/O.
Did Mary tell her killer beforehand, that she had a dream that she was being murdered, and her killer decided that he would make her dream come true, on the very place she had dreamt it.
If this is true, then its almost certain that she knew her attacker, and brings Barnett, Fleming, and if the latter was not the ''other Joe'' , that unknown person into the major suspect list.
Regards Richard.

[GUT]

Who said she was sleeping?

Who said it came from her room???

[Wickerman]

Who said she was sleeping?

[Michael W Richards]

If we are to assume that the cry of "Murder!" the Miller's Court neighbor claimed to hear was made by the attacked Kelly herself...aren't those kind of strange last words?

Wouldn't a cornered or attacked person cry "Stop!" or "Help!" or something more...immediate? "Murder!" just sounds more...observational. Which I guess it could have been (ie, someone seeing the crime scene, then taking off), but I've always thought it implied that this was Kelly speaking.
.

Historical context can help with this issue...its clear and unchallenged that many people heard such calls in the East End late at night and they had nothing at all to do with an attack or assault. It was a commonly used phrase for annoyance. Like Bloody Hell is today....certainly not a literal phrase either. If you examine the evidence, the location that the 2 separate sources said the sound came from, the evidence that room 13 was silent and dark before 1:30am, and the fact that Praters cat chose to wake her a second or two before the sound, you have an easily explained event.

Mary Kellly was sleeping...and we can assume, (if Im correct), that she was alone. Someone knocked softly on the window or door, waking diddles, and Marys response when answering the door was one of annoyance. After all, she had been sleeping off what sounds like a goodly amount of booze.

The reason she was alone is because no voices or any sounds were heard after that cry...leading us to believe she let the visitor in without vocal or physical objections and that the visitor didnt find her in the room with someone else...the fact that Sarah heard it "as if at her door" and Elizabeth heard it "as it from the court", we can safely assume that the call was from that courtyard. Yet even after this was published, no-one came forward and claimed that voice. If it was Mary Jane, then theres your reason no-one claimed it. The reason this wasnt a call for help is because, as stated, no sounds were heard after that cry, and Mary Kelly has her throat slit while on her bed facing the partition wall, not while standing at her door.

Many of the questions raised about any of these murders can often be answered using known established evidence and some degree of logic and reason. But when it comes to the many phantom and ghoul hunters, logic and reason dont seem to apply.

Mary Kelly was almost certainly killed by someone she allowed into her room about 3:45, which means he was well known to her. So you can forget the trolling stranger here.

[Wickerman]

I find it hard at accept too. Had it been a week or two later.... maybe. But the same day???

I don't recall the police at the time suggesting Maxwell had the day wrong. Maybe I've forgotten, or possibly Varqm was referring to Dew's memoirs. Given that Dew wrote that explanation close to fifty years after the fact, maybe this was his defective memory at work?

[Kattrup]

Well seems there were cries heard when no assaults even reported.

Yes, I was just replying to jason_c (and the OP) who thought it was an odd cry from someone in mortal danger.

It seems so to us, but victims of assault did use it. Therefore, it's possible it was MJK's last word.

[GUT]

But how do you get the date wrong, when it was the same day?
The murder happened Friday morning, Maxwell was questioned Friday afternoon.

Wrong Day?

I find it hard at accept too. Had it been a week or two later.... maybe. But the same day???

[Wickerman]

The police believed she had the date wrong.

But how do you get the date wrong, when it was the same day?
The murder happened Friday morning, Maxwell was questioned Friday afternoon.

Wrong Day?

[Varqm]

Maxwell and Maurice lewis said they saw Kelly at at least 8:00 AM and at around 10:00 AM.
Maurice Lewis said he knew Kelly for 5 years but Barnett said Kelly came to London 4 years before which cast doubt on Maurice Lewis.
Caroline Maxwell's seems truthful,but where was the corroboration from the people manning Britannia,the pub Kelly was known to frequent,inside or outside? The Britannia was full at 8:00 AM to 10:00 AM? which made it hard to remember the people inside?
The police believed she had the date wrong.