"Murder...!" cry

[GUT]

I always thought that the mention of a cry of murder was a generic description of a cry indicating a murderous attack - like hearing a cry for help does not necessarily mean hearing the actual word "help".

However, as GUT and Abby Normal have pointed out, it was in fact common for persons being physically attacked to cry out "murder".

Well seems there were cries heard when no assaults even reported.

[Kattrup]

It is a strange last cry. I wonder if Victorian literature had the cry of "murder!" as a popular trope at the moment of someone being attacked. This trope then became real. Perhaps similar to Victorian women being expected to swoon. Tbh im not sure I believe this myself, I am simply putting it out there.

I think it also possible "murder!" was perhaps a euphemism for a final sweary word from Kelly. The witnesses or newspapers were protecting Kelly's posthumous reputation and their readers.

I always thought that the mention of a cry of murder was a generic description of a cry indicating a murderous attack - like hearing a cry for help does not necessarily mean hearing the actual word "help".

However, as GUT and Abby Normal have pointed out, it was in fact common for persons being physically attacked to cry out "murder".

[GUT]

It is a strange last cry. I wonder if Victorian literature had the cry of "murder!" as a popular trope at the moment of someone being attacked. This trope then became real. Perhaps similar to Victorian women being expected to swoon. Tbh im not sure I believe this myself, I am simply putting it out there.

I think it also possible "murder!" was perhaps a euphemism for a final sweary word from Kelly. The witnesses or newspapers were protecting Kelly's posthumous reputation and their readers.

Not sure about literature, but it becomes apparent that cries of murder weren't uncommon when you read papers if the day, often with nothing of consequence being reported.

[jason_c]

It is a strange last cry. I wonder if Victorian literature had the cry of "murder!" as a popular trope at the moment of someone being attacked. This trope then became real. Perhaps similar to Victorian women being expected to swoon. Tbh im not sure I believe this myself, I am simply putting it out there.

I think it also possible "murder!" was perhaps a euphemism for a final sweary word from Kelly. The witnesses or newspapers were protecting Kelly's posthumous reputation and their readers.

[Abby Normal]

Diddles the cat, who lived upstairs with Elizabeth Prater, should have been questioned as well!

I was rewatching From Hell (2001) the other night (which is at least beautifully designed) and when the characters first walk into Miller's Court, a cat darts by. It made me smile. I was like, "DIDDLES!"

I think they took a lot of care with building the sets for that film. Here's a bonus feature video discussing their production design:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFnBSBZazK8

.

Love that movie!

I think didlles may have been awoken to the smell of blood and perhaps prater was off a bit on her memory. I had a cat and it used to get very agitated at the smell of blood. One time roommate was cleaning some very bloody deer meat and my cat started getting active, including constantly rubbing up against my leg.

[Abby Normal]

If we are to assume that the cry of "Murder!" the Miller's Court neighbor claimed to hear was made by the attacked Kelly herself...aren't those kind of strange last words?

Wouldn't a cornered or attacked person cry "Stop!" or "Help!" or something more...immediate? "Murder!" just sounds more...observational. Which I guess it could have been (ie, someone seeing the crime scene, then taking off), but I've always thought it implied that this was Kelly speaking.
.

Hi merry

There was good discussion about this point a while back and it was shown that at the time, if one really needed help, and or wanted police to enter a house to help, which Mary obviously was, then it was well known to shout murder.

I think if Mary was awoken and or in a drunken half asleep mode to being attacked I don't find it odd at all. We need to keep in mind to our modern ear it just sounds odd.

[Merry_Olde_Mary]

Diddles the cat, who lived upstairs with Elizabeth Prater, should have been questioned as well!

I was rewatching From Hell (2001) the other night (which is at least beautifully designed) and when the characters first walk into Miller's Court, a cat darts by. It made me smile. I was like, "DIDDLES!"

I think they took a lot of care with building the sets for that film. Here's a bonus feature video discussing their production design:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFnBSBZazK8

.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Pierre.
When it all boils down to, is its all hearsay.
There are so many coincidences, and so many theories.
Must say there must be a life away from Lechmere.
I have always looked at the little bits of puzzle, and try to fit them
Regards Richard.

[Pierre]

Hi Pierre.
Lottie who disclosed that to Kit Watkins , was resident in room 13 , when interviewed,
Unless she on the spot remembered , that Mrs Prater had mentioned a bit about a nightmare from the inquest report, and quickly incorporated it into a story that fitted hers.
I would say that is unlikely to have happened .
I would say both Praters and Lottie's accounts of a bad dream, are independent of each other, and give credence to my theory,
Regards Richard.

Hi Richards,

I understand what you mean.

But how can you know that the accounts or sources are independent when the source from 1892 has Lottie saying the same three things earlier stated by Prater in newspaper articles after the inquest in 1888?

Regards, Pierre

[richardnunweek]

Hi Pierre.
Lottie who disclosed that to Kit Watkins , was resident in room 13 , when interviewed,
Unless she on the spot remembered , that Mrs Prater had mentioned a bit about a nightmare from the inquest report, and quickly incorporated it into a story that fitted hers.
I would say that is unlikely to have happened .
I would say both Praters and Lottie's accounts of a bad dream, are independent of each other, and give credence to my theory,
Regards Richard.

[Wickerman]

If we are to assume that the cry of "Murder!" the Miller's Court neighbor claimed to hear was made by the attacked Kelly herself...aren't those kind of strange last words?

Wouldn't a cornered or attacked person cry "Stop!" or "Help!" or something more...immediate? "Murder!" just sounds more...observational. Which I guess it could have been (ie, someone seeing the crime scene, then taking off), but I've always thought it implied that this was Kelly speaking.
.

Right from the start it always sounded to me like the response of a third-party. Like, someone peeked through the crack in the window and saw the body, or saw the murderer in action.
Which raises a whole bunch of new questions about a missing witness, someone who chose not to come forward.
I don't see that as a problem, but others have.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon.
The killer mutilated Eddowes in a very short space of time, if you worsen that 10 fold, you are looking at no more then 40 minutes , top wack.
Mary's killer could have been out that room by 9.45 easily, how he managed to achieve that is another matter.
Regards Richard.

Hi Richard.

I don't recall there being an indepth debate on Casebook about whether Kelly could truly have been murdered so late.
I know a few do support the idea but it is never explored as a serious theory.

Maybe we should, at least it would be a refreshing change

[Merry_Olde_Mary]

"Mary told me, she had a nightmare that she was being murdered, and it frightened her." [This was sometime after the Eddowes murder, and apparently shortly before Kelly's demise].

Note the subject of the dream , and the words heard from room 13..''Oh Murder''. Fits rather well on someone having a recurrence , of a nightmare don't you think?.

Thanks. That puts the words in a more understandable (potential) context.

Very sad, too.

Poor little mite...
.

[Pierre]

Hi.
If one takes Mrs Praters inquest observation, it was if ''Awakening from a nightmare'' things make sense,
A completely different person, stated some years later [ Lottie] to Kit Watkins,a Canadian Journalist .
Mary told me, she had a nightmare that she was being murdered, and it frightened her,[this was sometime after the Eddowes murder, and apparently shortly before Kelly's demise].
Note the subject of the dream , and the words heard from room 13..''Oh Murder''.
Fits rather well on someone having a recurrence , of a nightmare don't you think?.
I have always believed that Mary Kelly was alive in daylight , and met her end shortly before /after 9.am.
That would fit in with witness accounts, and the police initial belief,
Regards Richard.

Hi Richard,

and the statements from the inquest about the nightmare (and violets and singing) was in the press long before Watkins talked to Lottie.

Regards, Pierre

[richardnunweek]

Hi Jon.
The killer mutilated Eddowes in a very short space of time, if you worsen that 10 fold, you are looking at no more then 40 minutes , top wack.
Mary's killer could have been out that room by 9.45 easily, how he managed to achieve that is another matter.
Regards Richard.