"Murder...!" cry

[GUT]

"When digested food is found in the stomach the importance of this find is appreciated by both the medical men and the police. Phillips had to have informed Abberline what was found, and Abberline is then tasked with finding the source of that fish & potato supper."

This seems like a reasonable assumption. But how many commercial places in Whitechapel serving fish and potatoes would have been open at 2AM? I can't imagine too many. Following this lead Abberline would have sent men to check them out and asked if a young, attractive, redheaded woman had been there late at night. Hard to believe that this couldn't have been done and since we have no mention of it by the police I think we have to look for another source of her last meal.

c.d.

Seems there were a lot of places selling food all hours of the day, at least one other murder here on Casebook references going out to get hubby food at about 1:00 am. Henry Mayhew also talks about it in one of his books.

[Sam Flynn]

"When digested food is found in the stomach the importance of this find is appreciated by both the medical men and the police. Phillips had to have informed Abberline what was found, and Abberline is then tasked with finding the source of that fish & potato supper."

This seems like a reasonable assumption.

Through 21st century eyes, of course. Not so sure about the 19th, when such (modern day) routine investigative tools as forensics, fingerprinting and tracker-dogs were still very much things of the future.

[c.d.]

"When digested food is found in the stomach the importance of this find is appreciated by both the medical men and the police. Phillips had to have informed Abberline what was found, and Abberline is then tasked with finding the source of that fish & potato supper."

This seems like a reasonable assumption. But how many commercial places in Whitechapel serving fish and potatoes would have been open at 2AM? I can't imagine too many. Following this lead Abberline would have sent men to check them out and asked if a young, attractive, redheaded woman had been there late at night. Hard to believe that this couldn't have been done and since we have no mention of it by the police I think we have to look for another source of her last meal.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

What we do not know is what the digestion rate was assumed to be for these foods in the late 19th century. Only if we find that can we try reverse engineer Dr. Bond's estimated time of death.

In the 19th century, as now, the presence of partly broken-down fish in the stomach would suggest that the food had been consumed a couple of hours before the relevant enzyme (pepsin) had ceased to be viable.

Problem being we don't know when she ate the food so it doesn't really add anything to the case.

True, but assuming the ~4AM cry of "Murder" was indeed hers, we can propose that she had been out and about at around 2AM, at which time she probably ate her last meal.

[GUT]

Problem being we don't know when she ate the food so it doesn't really add anything to the case.

[Wickerman]

Today's determination of the rate of digestion for fish & potatoes is likely more refined than it was in 1888.
So today's numbers are likely not going to help us much.

What we do not know is what the digestion rate was assumed to be for these foods in the late 19th century. Only if we find that can we try reverse engineer Dr. Bond's estimated time of death.
Personally, I doubt any doctor would offer an estimate that is based on the time of consumption if no time was given to the doctor.

When digested food is found in the stomach the importance of this find is appreciated by both the medical men and the police. Phillips had to have informed Abberline what was found, and Abberline is then tasked with finding the source of that fish & potato supper.

Abberline had to have provided Phillips (and subsequently Dr. Bond) with a time of consumption, the fact the need for this detail was not uncovered by the press is not suprising to me.

[Sam Flynn]

Digestion of fish varies by the type of fish somewhere between two and 24 hours.

We're not talking about digestion as in the complete breakdown and absorption of nutrients via the different parts of the alimentary tract, but the breakdown of the structure of fish protein in the stomach. Unless a person was extremely ill, I can't imagine that too many food products would stay in the stomach for a full 24 hours.

[GUT]

Digestion of fish varies by the type of fish somewhere between two and 24 hours.

Potatos about an hour, maybe slightly longer if fried in fat.

[Sam Flynn]

Sam, on the partially digested food, I believe this indicates that she was killed not long after ingesting that final meal, correct?

That's what I'd suggest. I think I'd be correct in saying that the digestive juices would have continued to break down the food for a short while after death, so the fact that the fish was partially digested might mean that she was killed comparatively soon after eating it. I recall reading that, compared to other meat, fish protein is more easily broken down - owing to its leanness and "looser" structure, I presume.

[Abby Normal]

I thought I was the only one who does not automatically accept they are defensive wounds.
If the mutilations were organized, methodical even clinical, it could be argued that haphazard slashes on her arms are defensive wounds. But all the mutilations are disorganized, there's no method, it's just a hack and slash all over her body, so there's less cause to view those wounds as defensive, in my opinion.




I don't recall the sheets being cut?
Saturated with blood yes, but no mention of cuts through the sheet.

If she was face down, with the killer on her back, he pulls her head up by the hair and slashed around her throat.



That would cause the saturation of the sheet beneath her, but there is no cuts in that sheet that I know of.
Do you remember where you read that?

hey wick

I thought I was the only one who does not automatically accept they are defensive wounds.
If the mutilations were organized, methodical even clinical, it could be argued that haphazard slashes on her arms are defensive wounds. But all the mutilations are disorganized, there's no method, it's just a hack and slash all over her body, so there's less cause to view those wounds as defensive, in my opinion.

I disagree. I think the killer was organized, knew what he wanted and liked and was even clinical. so to speak. I don't see this as some frenzied, high energy attacking with the knife (after the initial throat cut), like you see on most victims of an obvious sexual murder-where the victim has been violently stabbed a million times. blood spatter and "throw off blood"all about.

This was a killer, who enjoyed what his knife could do to the female body. taking his time, enjoying the cuts-savoring it. its also exhibited in the exteraneous cuts to eddowes.

if there is any defensive wounds-ithink its morelikely the wounds to the thumb and back of the hand.

I don't recall the sheets being cut?
Saturated with blood yes, but no mention of cuts through the sheet.

I cant find it-I'm research challenged. I know its out there-theres been extensive discussions about it on here.

If she was face down, with the killer on her back, he pulls her head up by the hair and slashed around her throat.

yes. absolutely. could have been done this way. any possible defensive wounds though don't really say much to me anyway(and I don't really know if there are any) as she could have woken up briefly as shes first being attacked.

[Michael W Richards]

As far as the discussion on what position she was in at the moment her throat was cut, the evidence suggests she was facing the partition wall, on her right side, on the right hand side of the bed. If she was asleep or falling into sleep the startled woman might have flailed her arms initially in some sort of defensive manner. And that why I believe the left hand and arm nicks are there.

[Michael W Richards]

I agree, which is why I believe that she knew her killer and let him in.

c.d.

It seems that we can agree on some things cd, though perhaps not what evidence might be used to support that position.

Sam, on the partially digested food, I believe this indicates that she was killed not long after ingesting that final meal, correct? What was in Blotchy's pail? Or what if they stopped on the way back and ate while walking? I don't disregard Blotchy as a potential suspect here, he is the last person seen with the victim alive in a reliable witness account. And we don't have a curtain call for him.

But if my supposition is correct, its unlikely that he was still there at 3:45. I think he may have departed before Elizabeth came in.

Having some experience with spirits also , I do understand the second wind principle, but by the description of Marys entrance to the courtyard and her subsequent serenading I think the woman might be done for the night. If she needed food, ok, I can see that, but with what money? As far as we know she left with only the coin Maria gave her, and since she is obviously drunk when arriving home we can assume her drinks were purchased for her..maybe by Blotchy. She was reluctant to solicit recently up until this point and McCarthy himself acknowledges that arrears are hard to get, she had no need to go out again unless for food.

I think its more likely Blotchy bought her a snack on the way back, and her digestion rate decreased when she fell asleep. When the killer arrives before 4am, a murder within the hour might make the stomach evidence appear as if she had just eaten.

[Wickerman]

not really, but even if they were it doesn't negate her waking up as she's being initially attacked in bed.

I thought I was the only one who does not automatically accept they are defensive wounds.
If the mutilations were organized, methodical even clinical, it could be argued that haphazard slashes on her arms are defensive wounds. But all the mutilations are disorganized, there's no method, it's just a hack and slash all over her body, so there's less cause to view those wounds as defensive, in my opinion.

However, I see the cuts through the corner of the sheet as indicating the killer may have put the sheet over her face as he cut through it to cut her throat. Which would indicate not only was she asleep when initially attacked but that they knew each other since he didn't want her to see who her killer was and or he didn't want to look at her face as he killed her.

I don't recall the sheets being cut?
Saturated with blood yes, but no mention of cuts through the sheet.

If she was face down, with the killer on her back, he pulls her head up by the hair and slashed around her throat.



That would cause the saturation of the sheet beneath her, but there is no cuts in that sheet that I know of.
Do you remember where you read that?

[Abby Normal]

So you don't believe those 'defensive' wounds, are defensive wounds?

not really, but even if they were it doesn't negate her waking up as she's being initially attacked in bed.


However, I see the cuts through the corner of the sheet as indicating the killer may have put the sheet over her face as he cut through it to cut her throat. Which would indicate not only was she asleep when initially attacked but that they knew each other since he didn't want her to see who her killer was and or he didn't want to look at her face as he killed her.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby,

Appearing to be passed out or asleep isn't the same thing as actually being in those conditions. I can't rule it out but I have never understood why someone would try to come in on their own and risk her waking up and yelling as opposed to being invited in.

c.d.

Hi cd
I see what your saying but as I mentioned earlier, they might have knocked first and when she didn't answer, came in.