"Murder...!" cry

[Sam Flynn]

So who knows whether this 'body on the bed' photo was taken before or after the autopsy?

The autopsy would require the doctors to examine the organs, which would necessitate moving them around, ideally - perhaps necessarily - in a location more suitable for such an examination to take place (i.e. off-site). Furthermore, the way Bond describes the body (and the disposition of what body parts we can see) tallies very closely with what appears in the photo. Taking all that into account, I've little doubt that it was taken before the autopsy.

[Sam Flynn]

I'm not so sure about her fighting back... The ecchymosis around the neck suggests bruising to me, an indication she was strangled. Plus her right hand was 'clenched', another indication of the same.

Why the cut thumb, though, if she hadn't at some point tried to manally fend off the knife? The thumb is an odd place for an accidental cut to have appeared.

I take the cut sheet as meaning the undersheet. It being pulled up and over her face once she is on her back at the left side (near the door) of the bed.

Why go through all that trouble? Seems unnecessarily fiddly to me.

[Robert]

Jon, she may have been naked simply because she had recently entertained a client, i.e. Mr A. She may then have not felt like getting up and dressed just so she could lie down again.

[Wickerman]

Her cut thumb would suggest that she had at least made an effort to grab and fend off the knife.
Helpful drawing, Jon, but how did he get into that position? He'd have to have been standing between the narrow space between bed and the wall, surely?

Edit: I've since read your "rear entry" post, so presumably he's kneeling on the bed, and straddling Kelly, at this point?

That is the suggestion, yes.

Dr Bond: "In the Dorset Street case the corner of the sheet to the right of the woman's head was much cut and saturated with blood, indicating that the face may have been covered with the sheet at the time of the attack."

Thanks, yes Abby mentioned the cut sheet.
Any cuts in the sheet will come after the initial attack, presumably after she is rolled over onto her back.

I'm not so sure about her fighting back. None of the victims seem to have been attacked by a knife wielding maniac. It is probably true to say none of the victims ever saw the knife. They were all subdued or suffocated/strangled by the time he took his knife out.
(The Stride case of course is debatable)
So, I do not see the Kelly murder as any different.

The ecchymosis around the neck suggests bruising to me, an indication she was strangled. Plus her right hand was 'clenched', another indication of the same. So she is face down on the bed unconscious when he grabs her hair from behind raising her head up and sliced her throat as I sketched.
Then, rolled her over onto her back where she was found, as described, 2/3rds the way over on the bed.
This is when the sheet may have been pulled over her face? But why do that when he conducts far worse mutilations with no sheet covering her body.
I don't see the significance of it.

Trouble is, unless things had been rearranged prior to the full-length photo being taken, Kelly's body was lying on a mattress with an "under-sheet", but there doesn't appear to have been an "over-sheet" or blanket near her head; on the contrary, if there was an "over-sheet" at all, it seems to be located near the foot of the bed. Perhaps Bond was mistaken or misinformed?

I take the cut sheet as meaning the undersheet. It being pulled up and over her face once she is on her back at the left side (near the door) of the bed.

There are some press accounts of the photographer arriving before 2:00, and only departing about 4:00 pm. It appears photo's were taken both before the autopsy and again after everything had been moved because of the autopsy/investigation.
So who knows whether this 'body on the bed' photo was taken before or after the autopsy?

Dr. Bond described how the body looked on his arrival at the room. He does say her right arm was close to the body, yet what appears to be her right hand is visible over at the far right side of the bed, contrary to his description. This may indicate that the photo we have was taken after the autopsy, when 'things' had been moved.

I prefer to take Bond at his word, he was there after all.

[Sam Flynn]

Just found this link, https://prezi.com/x9lafoou48qq/time-...mach-contents/. Halfway down the page 1. If there is food in the stomach, death occurred zero to two hours after the last meal

Fascinating. Thanks for that, Darryl.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Just found this link, https://prezi.com/x9lafoou48qq/time-...mach-contents/. Halfway down the page 1. If there is food in the stomach, death occurred zero to two hours after the last meal

[Sam Flynn]

I thought I was the only one who does not automatically accept they are defensive wounds.

Her cut thumb would suggest that she had at least made an effort to grab and fend off the knife.

Helpful drawing, Jon, but how did he get into that position? He'd have to have been standing between the narrow space between bed and the wall, surely?

Edit: I've since read your "rear entry" post, so presumably he's kneeling on the bed, and straddling Kelly, at this point?

That would cause the saturation of the sheet beneath her, but there is no cuts in that sheet that I know of. Do you remember where you read that?

Dr Bond: "In the Dorset Street case the corner of the sheet to the right of the woman's head was much cut and saturated with blood, indicating that the face may have been covered with the sheet at the time of the attack."

Trouble is, unless things had been rearranged prior to the full-length photo being taken, Kelly's body was lying on a mattress with an "under-sheet", but there doesn't appear to have been an "over-sheet" or blanket near her head; on the contrary, if there was an "over-sheet" at all, it seems to be located near the foot of the bed. Perhaps Bond was mistaken or misinformed?

[GUT]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driza-Bone

Had mine for decades.

Me too.

Full length, short, hat.

[Wickerman]

If she is face down and he is on her back...A) how did he get there without waking her, and B),

She is not asleep Michael.
Kelly brought her client back to her room.
She is undressed because she was about to entertain her client. Had she been alone and simply going to sleep she would have kept her clothes on like the poor of her class normally did.

She is on the bed with her client, which is why she is nearest the wall. As the most popular method for safe-sex was 'rear entry', her client is behind her - that is when he attacked.

how does her jugular spray only 90% sideways onto the partition wall? Why no spray over the head of the bed?

The head of the bed was not against a wall, so we do not know where else any spray might have been found. As it is, from the sketch I made, the cut begins at the left side of her neck, nearest the wall, where the spray made contact with the partition.
This is a right-handed killer at work.

Rhetorical question that B, the blood is found where it is because she was facing the wall it was found on when her throat is cut. She is then rolled back onto her back after the struggle subsides....leaving her in the approximate place she flopped back into when she is found. I would imagine that left arm may have dangled off the bed and over the floor, maybe it was left in that position before being placed back over her empty midsection....

Something like that, yes.

[DJA]

And popular today with those 'on the land".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driza-Bone

Had mine for decades.

[Michael W Richards]

I thought I was the only one who does not automatically accept they are defensive wounds.
If the mutilations were organized, methodical even clinical, it could be argued that haphazard slashes on her arms are defensive wounds. But all the mutilations are disorganized, there's no method, it's just a hack and slash all over her body, so there's less cause to view those wounds as defensive, in my opinion.




I don't recall the sheets being cut?
Saturated with blood yes, but no mention of cuts through the sheet.

If she was face down, with the killer on her back, he pulls her head up by the hair and slashed around her throat.



That would cause the saturation of the sheet beneath her, but there is no cuts in that sheet that I know of.
Do you remember where you read that?

If she is face down and he is on her back...A) how did he get there without waking her, and B), how does her jugular spray only 90% sideways onto the partition wall? Why no spray over the head of the bed?

Rhetorical question that B, the blood is found where it is because she was facing the wall it was found on when her throat is cut. She is then rolled back onto her back after the struggle subsides....leaving her in the approximate place she flopped back into when she is found. I would imagine that left arm may have dangled off the bed and over the floor, maybe it was left in that position before being placed back over her empty midsection. Which would make my theory that he was left handed workable, and make this murder unlike the previous ones that were almost certainly committed by someone right handed.

[Michael W Richards]

True enough, but the important question is less one of where she went, but when she ate. To put it in a quasi-equation form:

Time of Eating = (Time of "Murder!" cry) - (Approx time for fish to appear partially-digested in stomach)

Well Sam, I feel that if we knew she didnt leave her room after 11:45 then we would only have 2 time periods to worry about for the eating question...one, when heading to, or arriving, home,... or when she is woken by someone at her window or door at approx 3:45. If she is killed shortly after that time, then a meal ingested around 12-1am would still be partially digested.

Im very content with my own assessment of Mary Kelly whereabouts after midnight, (its not a requirement that others also agree with it), but I do believe that if people were to create a storyline based upon what is seen and heard by only the witnesses who we can state unequivocally knew Mary Kelly...which are Julia, Maria, Mary Ann and Elizabeth, then this murder can potentially be solved. Because in my suggested scenario Mary is certainly killed by someone she knew very well. And we have a place to start looking....at who the other Joe might have been.

Some have suggested Fleming...that doesnt quite ring true for me, I can believe he wanted to marry Mary as is stated by a witness, and the Joe she is seeing while seeing Barnett doesnt always treat her well. Im assuming physically.

For me the most intriguing part of the history that is given for Mary Kelly is her life as somewhat of a courtesan or paid escort for someone who took her to France. A trip which might have been luxurious compared with her brothel life but yet one she chose to end abruptly after just a fortnight. Was she being "treated ill" in France? Was she afraid for her safety? Was she in the company of well heeled Fenians? Did she meet Joe #2 there?

[Wickerman]

And popular today with those 'on the land".

True, I wear the Outback western design hat regularly, but I don't work on the land.
The Drover coat, made of the same material - oilskin, is just too heavy for my job to wear it every day, unless it is really raining hard.

[GUT]

What is being described is oilcloth, it was a substitute for leather.
Basically it is cotton soaked in oil, we still wear it today as waterproof clothing. It was popular as motorcycle clothing back in the 50's/60's.

And popular today with those 'on the land".

[Sam Flynn]

We do not know how partially digested the food was and how much.Reading about it could take 2-4-6 hours to empty the stomach before death.

We're not talking about the emptying of the stomach, but the partially-digested state of the food that was still in the stomach. The gastric juices do a pretty efficient job on breaking down fish, so the fact that only some of the meat had been broken down suggests that it had not been eaten all that long before the stomach stopped being able to process the food further.