The Double Event

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Your theory has already contradicted itself. If the killer dropped his knife because he was interrupted, then that was an unplanned act, so there can be no plan for an accomplice to remove it.

I said nothing to the effect that the person asked to remove the knife, was an accomplice to someone who left the knife behind. You just made that up.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

How were they supposed to do that without leaving an obvious blood trail showing the body was dragged?

I did not use the word 'dragged', or any synonym of. You just made that up.

What would be the point of moving the body?

Goldstein left the yard before Diemschitz arrived, remember?

The Star, Oct 1:

There was a woman in the kitchen - which is only a few feet from the spot where the body was found, and several other people downstairs, but they heard nothing. The precise spot where the woman was found lying is marked by a small splash of blood. She lay on her back, her head was near the grating of the cellar, and her body stretched across the passage. There is a severe bruise on the cheek of the unfortunate woman, which may be explained by the theory that the throat was cut while she was standing, and the body allowed to fall heavily upon its side, bringing the cheek into contact with a stone that abuts from the wall just at this point.

Funny how she managed to end up with her boots tucked in behind the right gate, with her bonnet lying on the ground a few inches from her head.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

This makes no sense. Members of the International Working Men's Education Society were not issued special matching knives when they joined the group. Some of them might have had knives. Some of those knives might look a little like a hypothetical dropped knife. The same is true of the many non-clubmembers who entered Dutfield's Yard.

I said nothing to suggest that the members were issued special matching knives. You just made that up.
As I suggested, the possible similarity of the knife to members knives was my second best speculation.

Touching the knife is recklessly stupid - an outsider could walk in at any moment and see them. Discussing getting rid of the knife is pointless and recklessly stupid - an outsider could overhear them.

What do mean could walk in...?

Irish Times: About five minutes to one o'clock this morning a youth about twenty years of age named Joseph Koster was accosted by a little boy who came running up to him as he was passing on the opposite side of 40 Berner street, used by the International Socialist Club, and told him that a woman was lying in the gateway next to the club, with her throat cut. Koster immediately ran across the road and saw a woman lying on her side in the gateway leading into Dutfield's stabling and van premises. ... He immediately roused the neighbours...

Fanny: I was just about going to bed, sir, when I heard a call for the police. I ran to the door, and before I could open it I heard somebody say, 'Come out quick; there's a poor woman here that's had ten inches of cold steel in her.'

Which just happened to be the length of the blade of the knife found by Coram.

This makes no sense for the same reasons. Even discussing disposing of the hypothetical dropped knife drastically increases the chance of the club being blamed. Even Michael's conspiracy theory make more sense than this.

It would take a few seconds to pick up the knife and put it in a bag. In near darkness, and with someone watching at the gates, it seems quite feasible to me. However, if you're not happy with this theory, we can always go back to Goldstein being the murderer. I'm easy.

[Fiver]

That's a bit of a jump from sweets! But interesting since, I believe, the company was earlier known as Fawkes and Horner...

Producers of the finest explosives since 1605?

[Fiver]

I did not use the word 'dragged', or any synonym of. You just made that up..

You said "I think the body was pivoted around by those who discovered the body, to create a clear passage for Louis' cart." How are they supposed to "pivot" the body without dragging it?

[Fiver]

I said nothing to the effect that the person asked to remove the knife, was an accomplice to someone who left the knife behind. You just made that up.

Suppressing evidence would make the hypothetical mover of the hypothetically dropped knife an accomplice to the murderer.

You said "Perhaps the answer is; the murderer being disturbed in his work on 'number one', thought it prudent to leave the knife behind. He fled the scene without risking being caught with the knife on his person. This would suggest a very close thing. So what happens to the knife, in this scenario - it obviously wasn't found in the yard or club, or on any person there. Evidently the knife has 'walked' - someone had been tasked with taking the knife off-site, and dumping it somewhere. The obvious candidate being Leon Goldstein."

If the killer dropped his knife because he was interrupted, then that was an unplanned act, so there can be no plan for an accomplice to remove it. Your idea of club members finding the dropped knife and deciding to dispose of it is self-contradictory, speculative, and requires the club members to behave in an incredibly stupid manner.

The killer fleeing at interruption means he expects most or all of the club members would do nothing to protect him. Yet your conspiracy theory requires multiple club members conspiring to protect the killer.

The killer choosing to drop the knife means either there is nothing distinctive about the knife that would tie it to the killer or the killer is an idiot. Yet your conspiracy theory requires the knife to be distinctive enough that the club members think they know who it belongs to. And for the club members to all care enough about the alleged knife owner that they will risk execution for them.

In your conspiracy theory, dropping the knife was an unplanned act, which means your conspirators have not planned anything ahead of time. They need to find the knife. And plenty of time to decide if they recognize the knife. And still more time to come to an agreement that they are all willing to risk execution to protect the person they think owned the knife. And still more time deciding how to dispose of the knife. And even more time deciding who will dispose of the knife.

During this extended committee meeting, the conspirators risk more club members entering the yard from the club or the street, which at best means they have to start the discussion over from the beginning, and at worst means they are all going to jail. There's also a significant risk of non-club members coming into Dutfield's Yard from the several houses that also open into Dutfield's Yard or from Berner Street.

Your conspiracy theory also requires absolute trust between the conspirators. Goldstein has to unshakably trust that the other conspirators will not wait until he leaves and then scapegoat him as the killer. The other conspirators also have to unshakably trust that Goldstein will dispose of the knife instead of taking it straight to the police. And then all of the conspirators must keep silent on the conspiracy for the rest of their lives, with no attacks of conscience or deathbed confessions.

Last I checked membership in the International Working Men's Education Society only required being a Socialist. Your conspiracy theory also requires them to be murderous fanatics willing to die for each other. And to have the collective intelligence of a house plant.

[Fiver]

Goldstein left the yard before Diemschitz arrived, remember?

That is true but irrelevant. What would be the point of the conspirators moving Stride's body?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

A bizarre post.

The hypothesis is that a few members thought it best to remove the knife, to prevent the police asking "The murderer was obviously disturbed and left in hurry, leaving his knife behind. Why didn't any of you see or hear him running off?"
I don't know if the murderer was disturbed, or left his knife behind. However, you might remember that someone appears to have guessed a blade length that matched the length of the blade of the knife found the following night on Whitechapel Road. Why would the murderer of Stride and/or Eddowes dump a perfectly good knife? Why would anyone else dump a large, well built knife? I don't know, but maybe they did ... or maybe they didn't.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

That is true but irrelevant. What would be the point of the conspirators moving Stride's body?

Removing the knife hardly even amounts to a cover-up, let alone a conspiracy.
Ignoring that misrepresentation, the issue is that the body had been left across the passage...

The Star, Oct 1: She lay on her back, her head was near the grating of the cellar, and her body stretched across the passage.

So what happened when Louis arrived...?

The first to find the body was Mr. Diemshitz, steward of the club. Interviewed by a Star reporter, Mr. Diemshitz said:- "I was coming home from market at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I am a traveller by trade, and go to different markets to sell my goods. Yesterday I went to Westow-hill. As the night was so wet I did not stay quite so late as usual. After I had passed through the gate which had been left open on driving into the yard my donkey shied a little in consequence of my cart coming in contact with something on the ground. On looking down I saw the ground was not level, so I took the butt end of my whip and touched what appeared to me in the dark to be a heap of dirt lately placed there, a thing I was not accustomed to see. Not being able to move it, I struck a match and FOUND IT WAS A WOMAN.
First of all I thought it was my wife, but I found her inside the club enjoying herself with the others. I said to some of the members there is a woman lying in the yard, and I think she is drunk. Young Isaacs, a tailor machinist, went to the door and struck a match, and to our horror we saw blood trickling down the gutter almost from the gate to the club. The dance was immediately stopped. I and Isaacs ran out for a policeman, but could not find one after traversing several streets, but in the meantime another man from the Club, Eagle, ran to the Leman-street police-station and fetched two policemen, who arrived about seven minutes after the discovery."

So the cart collided with the body.
By the way, the reason for Eagle taking so long to find police is given; he firstly ran toward Leman-street station! Also, 7 minutes after the discovery puts that discovery at about 12:55 - same as the Joseph Koster story in the Irish Times.
Another collision quote was in the Echo, Oct 1:

There are a pair of iron-studded and iron-capped gates at the entrance to the yard, in which are one or two cottage residences, besides stables. These on Sunday morning, at one o'clock, were open- as is usually the case during the night. The steward of the International and Educational Club reached the gate just as the clock struck one. "It was very dark," he said. "There is no light near here, and the darkness is consequently much more intense between these two walls" - pointing to the walls of the Club and a house on the other side of the yard- "than out in the street. The gate was pushed back, and the wheel of my cart bumped against something. I struck a match to see what it was, but the wind blew it out. However, the flash was enough to show me that the person was on the ground either asleep or dead."

It is obvious why the body had to be swung around a bit.

[JeffHamm]

Removing the knife hardly even amounts to a cover-up, let alone a conspiracy.
Ignoring that misrepresentation, the issue is that the body had been left across the passage...

The Star, Oct 1: She lay on her back, her head was near the grating of the cellar, and her body stretched across the passage.

So what happened when Louis arrived...?

The first to find the body was Mr. Diemshitz, steward of the club. Interviewed by a Star reporter, Mr. Diemshitz said:- "I was coming home from market at one o'clock on Sunday morning. ...."

So the cart collided with the body.
By the way, the reason for Eagle taking so long to find police is given; he firstly ran toward Leman-street station! Also, 7 minutes after the discovery puts that discovery at about 12:55 - same as the Joseph Koster story in the Irish Times.

...."[/I]

It is obvious why the body had to be swung around a bit.

I don't get this? How does the statement the police arrived 7 minutes after the discover lead to the discovery being at 12:55?

He specifically states he was coming home from market at one o'clock, then goes on to say he poked with his whip, thought it was a pile of dirt or something, then he goes and lights a match and realizes it is a woman, whom he presumes is drunk. The then goes and finds his wife, and he gets a club member, and then discovering it was a dead body when they see the blood. Finally, we get him saying the police arrived 7 minutes after the discovery (presumably of the body; but even if we allow him to mean his initial discovery of it being a woman, that just means he's suggesting the police arrived around 1:07 (or 1:08 if we give him a minute of faffing around with the whip until he lights his match - maybe even 1:10 if by discovery he means discovery she was dead), in now way does that lead to the discovery being at 12:55 because he clearly states he was coming home from market at that time and doesn't get to the club until 1:00?

But nothing in any of that quote you presented allows for a discovery time of 12:55. The earliest time mentioned is 1 o'clock, you're putting the discovery 5 minutes before he even gets there. I don't understand how you came to that conclusion based upon what you presented?

- Jeff

[Fiver]

A bizarre post.

The bizarre post is your conspiracy theory,

The hypothesis is that a few members thought it best to remove the knife, to prevent the police asking "The murderer was obviously disturbed and left in hurry, leaving his knife behind. Why didn't any of you see or hear him running off?"

That is not the theory you originally presented. You said - "As to why they would make the decision to remove the knife, well two things come to mind. If the knife was similar in size and style to the knives of other club members, an obvious inference can be drawn. However, the knife presented at the inquest was a whopper, so that seems like an unlikely problem. Having said that, there may have been an effort to hide knives from the police ...."

If the killer dropped his knife because he was interrupted, then that was an unplanned act, so there can be no plan for an accomplice to remove it. Your idea of club members finding the dropped knife and deciding to dispose of it is self-contradictory, speculative, and requires the club members to behave in an incredibly stupid manner.

The killer fleeing at interruption means he expects most or all of the club members would do nothing to protect him. Yet your conspiracy theory requires multiple club members conspiring to protect the killer.

The killer choosing to drop the knife means either there is nothing distinctive about the knife that would tie it to the killer or the killer is an idiot. Yet your conspiracy theory requires the knife to be distinctive enough that the club members think they know who it belongs to. And for the club members to all care enough about the alleged knife owner that they will risk execution for them.

In your conspiracy theory, dropping the knife was an unplanned act, which means your conspirators have not planned anything ahead of time. They need to find the knife. And plenty of time to decide if they recognize the knife. And still more time to come to an agreement that they are all willing to risk execution to protect the person they think owned the knife. And still more time deciding how to dispose of the knife. And even more time deciding who will dispose of the knife.

During this extended committee meeting, the conspirators risk more club members entering the yard from the club or the street, which at best means they have to start the discussion over from the beginning, and at worst means they are all going to jail. There's also a significant risk of non-club members coming into Dutfield's Yard from the several houses that also open into Dutfield's Yard or from Berner Street.

Your conspiracy theory also requires absolute trust between the conspirators. Goldstein has to unshakably trust that the other conspirators will not wait until he leaves and then scapegoat him as the killer. The other conspirators also have to unshakably trust that Goldstein will dispose of the knife instead of taking it straight to the police. And then all of the conspirators must keep silent on the conspiracy for the rest of their lives, with no attacks of conscience or deathbed confessions.

Last I checked membership in the International Working Men's Education Society only required being a Socialist. Your conspiracy theory also requires them to be murderous fanatics willing to die for each other. And to have the collective intelligence of a house plant.

[Fiver]

The hypothesis is that a few members thought it best to remove the knife, to prevent the police asking "The murderer was obviously disturbed and left in hurry, leaving his knife behind. Why didn't any of you see or hear him running off?"

Now let's deal with this version of your conspiracy theory. Like your first version, it requires evidence tampering, perjury, and conspiracy. The conspirators would be risking execution for doing it. It also gains them nothing - even without the knife, police could still have asked "The murderer was obviously disturbed and left in hurry. Why didn't any of you see or hear him running off?"

In your conspiracy theory, dropping the knife was an unplanned act, which means your conspirators have not planned anything ahead of time. They need to find the knife. Then one of the conspirators needs come up with the misguided idea of moving the knife. They then have to spend time persuading the others to become accomplices to murder and risk execution for a plan that gains them nothing and helps a murderer. Potentially putting your neck in a noose for a murderous stranger should be a hard sell that will take a lot of time to convince the others. Then the conspirators will need to spend more time deciding how to dispose of the knife. And even more time deciding who will dispose of the knife.

During this extended committee meeting, the conspirators risk more club members entering the yard from the club or the street, which at best means they have to start the discussion over from the beginning, and at worst means they are all going to jail. There's also a significant risk of non-club members coming into Dutfield's Yard from the several houses that also open into Dutfield's Yard or from Berner Street.

Your conspiracy theory also requires absolute trust between the conspirators. Goldstein has to unshakably trust that the other conspirators will not wait until he leaves and then scapegoat him as the killer. The other conspirators also have to unshakably trust that Goldstein will dispose of the knife instead of taking it straight to the police. And then all of the conspirators must keep silent on the conspiracy for the rest of their lives, with no attacks of conscience or deathbed confessions.

Last I checked membership in the International Working Men's Education Society only required being a Socialist. This version of your conspiracy theory also requires them to be stonehearted monsters willing to die for a murderous stranger. And to have the collective intelligence of a house plant.

[Fiver]

Removing the knife hardly even amounts to a cover-up, let alone a conspiracy..

Removing the knife would be tampering with evidence, obstruction of justice, and makes anyone involved a accomplice of the murderer. Discussing and agreeing to the plan would be conspiracy. Lying about the knife being present would be obstruction of justice; perjury if they gave legal testimony. If they are caught, the conspirators will at best be facing long jail sentences, with a significant chance of being executed. and in return, they gain absolutely nothing.

[Fiver]

Ignoring that misrepresentation, the issue is that the body had been left across the passage...

The Star, Oct 1: She lay on her back, her head was near the grating of the cellar, and her body stretched across the passage.

The Star account does not support your position. It gives no evidence that club members moved Stride's body, nor does it provide a reason for them moving it.

So what happened when Louis arrived...?

The first to find the body was Mr. Diemshitz, steward of the club. Interviewed by a Star reporter, Mr. Diemshitz said:- "I was coming home from market at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I am a traveller by trade, and go to different markets to sell my goods. Yesterday I went to Westow-hill. As the night was so wet I did not stay quite so late as usual. After I had passed through the gate which had been left open on driving into the yard my donkey shied a little in consequence of my cart coming in contact with something on the ground. On looking down I saw the ground was not level, so I took the butt end of my whip and touched what appeared to me in the dark to be a heap of dirt lately placed there, a thing I was not accustomed to see. Not being able to move it, I struck a match and FOUND IT WAS A WOMAN.
First of all I thought it was my wife, but I found her inside the club enjoying herself with the others. I said to some of the members there is a woman lying in the yard, and I think she is drunk. Young Isaacs, a tailor machinist, went to the door and struck a match, and to our horror we saw blood trickling down the gutter almost from the gate to the club. The dance was immediately stopped. I and Isaacs ran out for a policeman, but could not find one after traversing several streets, but in the meantime another man from the Club, Eagle, ran to the Leman-street police-station and fetched two policemen, who arrived about seven minutes after the discovery."

So the cart collided with the body.

Deimschutz' account does not support your position. It gives no evidence that club members moved Stride's body, nor does it provide a reason for them moving it.

By the way, the reason for Eagle taking so long to find police is given; he firstly ran toward Leman-street station! Also, 7 minutes after the discovery puts that discovery at about 12:55 - same as the Joseph Koster story in the Irish Times.
Another collision quote was in the Echo, Oct 1:

There are a pair of iron-studded and iron-capped gates at the entrance to the yard, in which are one or two cottage residences, besides stables. These on Sunday morning, at one o'clock, were open- as is usually the case during the night. The steward of the International and Educational Club reached the gate just as the clock struck one. "It was very dark," he said. "There is no light near here, and the darkness is consequently much more intense between these two walls" - pointing to the walls of the Club and a house on the other side of the yard- "than out in the street. The gate was pushed back, and the wheel of my cart bumped against something. I struck a match to see what it was, but the wind blew it out. However, the flash was enough to show me that the person was on the ground either asleep or dead."

It is obvious why the body had to be swung around a bit.

Nothing that you present supports your position. You still have provided no evidence that club members moved Stride's body, nor have your provided a reason for them moving it.

[caz]

Removing the knife would be tampering with evidence, obstruction of justice, and makes anyone involved a accomplice of the murderer. Discussing and agreeing to the plan would be conspiracy. Lying about the knife being present would be obstruction of justice; perjury if they gave legal testimony. If they are caught, the conspirators will at best be facing long jail sentences, with a significant chance of being executed. and in return, they gain absolutely nothing.

What I don't understand is why NBFN assumes that if anyone at the club had found a knife which could have been the murder weapon, they would a) automatically have presumed the cut throat to be a fellow club member [and therefore possibly Jack the Ripper] and b) immediately have gone into damage control mode and risked getting into very serious trouble, to protect one of their own, when nobody at the club may have needed any such protection. That simply isn't normal behaviour. People usually resist the very idea of a violent killer being among their friends or associates, and would need more than a dropped knife to believe it. The stronger the suspicions about a particular person in their midst, the less likely anyone would want to get their hands dirty by covering up for them in a case as serious as this.

I've made this point before, but I don't recall it being addressed by NBFN or Michael Richards. Is it really likely that Louis D would have had anything to do with protecting the killer that night, not knowing if his wife might be next? He initially wondered if it was his wife lying on the ground, so it must have crossed his mind what might have happened if she had gone into the yard at the wrong moment instead of Stride.

Love,

Caz
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