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  • The Double Event

    I'm by no means an expert here so please correct me as appropriate, but I understand different knives were used in the Stride and Eddowes cases. Is that suggestive that different killers were involved ? Is a single killer likely to be carrying multiple knives ? You are more likely to use your trusted one one would think. Or perhaps he popped home between victims for a knife swap, unlikely.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Dickere View Post
    I'm by no means an expert here so please correct me as appropriate, but I understand different knives were used in the Stride and Eddowes cases. Is that suggestive that different killers were involved ? Is a single killer likely to be carrying multiple knives ? You are more likely to use your trusted one one would think. Or perhaps he popped home between victims for a knife swap, unlikely.
    Hi Dickere,

    I'm not sure it can be determined that different knives were used in the Stride and Eddowes murders. The only wound in common between them is the cut to the throat, and while Eddowes' throat wound is slightly deeper, and opens a hole in the vessels on the right side, while in Stride's case they are intact, those differences are so slight that there is nothing in them to require the claim a different knife was used. A comparison of the medical descriptions of the throat wounds between the two cases reads remarkably similar to me, and as such, is one of the reasons why I cannot make up my mind about Stride's inclusion as a victim of JtR. There are many things different about her case, most apparent the lack of mutilation, that would tend to suggest she is not part of the series. But, to me, the similarity of her injury to that inflicted only shortly later on Eddowes, ties them together. As such, I see no reason to start from the idea that different knives were used, and will go so far as to say that even if such an opinion were offered, that said opinion is unfounded. (ooo, it feels good to make a bold claim, I'm sure my wishy-washyness will kick in soon though and I'll retract that! ha ha)

    - Jeff

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    • #3
      Thanks and fair enough, Jeff. I wasn't aware it wasn't so clean cut (pun intended)

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

        Hi Dickere,

        I'm not sure it can be determined that different knives were used in the Stride and Eddowes murders. The only wound in common between them is the cut to the throat, and while Eddowes' throat wound is slightly deeper, and opens a hole in the vessels on the right side, while in Stride's case they are intact, those differences are so slight that there is nothing in them to require the claim a different knife was used. A comparison of the medical descriptions of the throat wounds between the two cases reads remarkably similar to me, and as such, is one of the reasons why I cannot make up my mind about Stride's inclusion as a victim of JtR. There are many things different about her case, most apparent the lack of mutilation, that would tend to suggest she is not part of the series. But, to me, the similarity of her injury to that inflicted only shortly later on Eddowes, ties them together. As such, I see no reason to start from the idea that different knives were used, and will go so far as to say that even if such an opinion were offered, that said opinion is unfounded. (ooo, it feels good to make a bold claim, I'm sure my wishy-washyness will kick in soon though and I'll retract that! ha ha)

        - Jeff
        I am absolutely 100% in agreement with you Jeff. To paraphrase another poster "bingo!"
        "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
        - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

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        • #5
          And it's a double bingo from me.
          "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


          Comment


          • #6
            So if a single knife was used, could it be the one found on October 1st by Thomas Coram/PC Drage?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

              Hi Dickere,

              I'm not sure it can be determined that different knives were used in the Stride and Eddowes murders. The only wound in common between them is the cut to the throat, and while Eddowes' throat wound is slightly deeper, and opens a hole in the vessels on the right side, while in Stride's case they are intact, those differences are so slight that there is nothing in them to require the claim a different knife was used. A comparison of the medical descriptions of the throat wounds between the two cases reads remarkably similar to me, and as such, is one of the reasons why I cannot make up my mind about Stride's inclusion as a victim of JtR. There are many things different about her case, most apparent the lack of mutilation, that would tend to suggest she is not part of the series. But, to me, the similarity of her injury to that inflicted only shortly later on Eddowes, ties them together. As such, I see no reason to start from the idea that different knives were used, and will go so far as to say that even if such an opinion were offered, that said opinion is unfounded. (ooo, it feels good to make a bold claim, I'm sure my wishy-washyness will kick in soon though and I'll retract that! ha ha)

              - Jeff
              There was talk about two different knives

              Dr Phillips -Stride Inquest
              “A short knife, such as a shoemaker's well-ground knife, would do the same thing”

              Chapman Inquest
              [Coroner] Was the instrument used at the throat the same as that used at the abdomen? –
              Dr Phillips -Very probably. It must have been a very sharp knife, probably with a thin, narrow blade, and at least six to eight inches in length, and perhaps longer.

              www.trevormarriott.co.uk



              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post

                So if a single knife was used, could it be the one found on October 1st by Thomas Coram/PC Drage?
                Someone may have wanted the police to find it. If that were true, and the knife had no connection to the murders, then that someone is throwing away a very large and well built knife. That person could not be poor. Yet unlike the Lusk letter and kidney, were is the fun in just dumping the knife on a doorstep?
                Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

                  There was talk about two different knives

                  Dr Phillips -Stride Inquest
                  “A short knife, such as a shoemaker's well-ground knife, would do the same thing”

                  Chapman Inquest
                  [Coroner] Was the instrument used at the throat the same as that used at the abdomen? –
                  Dr Phillips -Very probably. It must have been a very sharp knife, probably with a thin, narrow blade, and at least six to eight inches in length, and perhaps longer.

                  www.trevormarriott.co.uk


                  Hi Trevor,

                  The question was about whether or not the knife used in the Stride and Eddowes murders were different, not the knife in the Stride and Chapman cases.

                  Anyway, I'm sure they would have looked at whether or not there was evidence for or against the idea of the same knife being used. Given the evidence we have, though, while it is not capable to declare it must have been the same knife, it's also not sufficient to declare it must have been different knives. In the end, we're left with evidence that could have been produced by the same knife, but it's not definitive and different knives also could have been used.

                  - Jeff

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

                    Hi Trevor,

                    The question was about whether or not the knife used in the Stride and Eddowes murders were different, not the knife in the Stride and Chapman cases.

                    Anyway, I'm sure they would have looked at whether or not there was evidence for or against the idea of the same knife being used. Given the evidence we have, though, while it is not capable to declare it must have been the same knife, it's also not sufficient to declare it must have been different knives. In the end, we're left with evidence that could have been produced by the same knife, but it's not definitive and different knives also could have been used.

                    - Jeff
                    If there were two differnet killers then what is the liklehood that they both used the same type of knife, another point to consider when deciding if Stride was a Ripper victim which personally I dont think she was for this and other reasons previoulsy stated.

                    www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

                      If there were two differnet killers then what is the liklehood that they both used the same type of knife, another point to consider when deciding if Stride was a Ripper victim which personally I dont think she was for this and other reasons previoulsy stated.

                      www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                      Hi Trevor,

                      Yes, that's the point being discussed. If it could be shown the same knife was used then it links stride's murder to Eddowes and the rest of the series. If, however, it could be shown different knives were used, then that suggests she is not connected.

                      I see arguments on both sides with regards to her inclusion and am not convinced either way. And, I don't think the evidence we have is sufficient to resolve the same/different knife question.


                      - Jeff

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

                        Hi Trevor,

                        Yes, that's the point being discussed. If it could be shown the same knife was used then it links stride's murder to Eddowes and the rest of the series. If, however, it could be shown different knives were used, then that suggests she is not connected.

                        I see arguments on both sides with regards to her inclusion and am not convinced either way. And, I don't think the evidence we have is sufficient to resolve the same/different knife question.


                        - Jeff
                        Hi Jeff,

                        If there was some highly individual detail that showed beyond reasonable doubt that Eddowes and Stride were killed with the same knife then of course we would have to say that they were very probably killed by the same man (apologies for stating the obvious) If it could be shown that they were killed by at least the same type/size of knife then I’d say that we could say no more than they could have been killed by the same man. But if they were killed with provably different knives would that prove that they were killed by different culprits? I’d say that it would increase the likelihood but I don’t think that we could show any great level of certainty. The Zodiac killer for example used different guns an other weapons. The killer might have had a collection of knives.

                        I certainly agree though that the knife question gets us no further in deciding if The Double Event was a Double Event or not. I certainly wouldn’t put much money on it either way.
                        Regards

                        Herlock



                        “All conspiracy theories are the product of the subconscious attempt of an ignorant yet creative mind to counteract the fear of the unknown with the tales of fantasy.” Abhijit Naskar.

                        “Conspiracy theorists, she knew, were paranoid by definition, and usually with good reason - they were indeed being watched, largely because they were standing on an upturned bucket, haranguing the sheeple with their wingnut delusions.” Mick Herron.

                        ”The most confused you will ever get is when you try to convince your heart and spirit of something your mind knows is a lie.” Shannon L. Alder.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

                          Hi Trevor,

                          Yes, that's the point being discussed. If it could be shown the same knife was used then it links stride's murder to Eddowes and the rest of the series. If, however, it could be shown different knives were used, then that suggests she is not connected.

                          I see arguments on both sides with regards to her inclusion and am not convinced either way. And, I don't think the evidence we have is sufficient to resolve the same/different knife question.


                          - Jeff
                          But the other factors of the Stride murder in my opinion point to a different killer.

                          www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

                            But the other factors of the Stride murder in my opinion point to a different killer.
                            ...and other factors point to it not. Such as the timing.
                            "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
                            - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by erobitha View Post

                              ...and other factors point to it not. Such as the timing.
                              The timing of the Stride murder is one factor that points to a different killer

                              www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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