The Double Event

[Joshua Rogan]

Horner & Sons located in Mitre Square most likely dealt in the sale of Cocoa-nuts/cocoanut oil and also breath sweets such as the kind found on Elizabeth Stride.

On a side note, Mr. Horner was a director of the newly formed (1888), Flameless Explosives Company which dealt in dynamite.

That's a bit of a jump from sweets! But interesting since, I believe, the company was earlier known as Fawkes and Horner...

[rjpalmer]

Daily News 1 Oct;

"Access to Mitre-square is gained from three sides - Mitre-street, Duke-street, and St. James's-place - and the neighbourhood is given over to small houses and shops, chiefly inhabited by dealers in foreign fruits and nuts, grapes, peaches, cocoanuts, almonds, &c."

I think this has to be a coconut, and not the cacao plant, which, when processed looks like a coffee bean and has little use until it is ground up and made into powder.

As Jerry notes, the Victorians confused the issue because they spelled two distinct plants the same way...and both incorrectly.

But it is very rare to sell cacao pods in a fruit market, though I have seen it on rare occasions being sold as a novelty, because the pod is semi-soft (unlike a coconut) and begins to rot rather quickly. The chocolate beans also need to be fermented for several days to remove the slimy outer coating before they are dried, so I don't really see cacao pods being exported before they are cut open and processed; the beans would be removed, fermented, and dried first, ending up with a product similar to coffee beans. (I used to have several cacao plants in the tropics)

There are also references to cocoanut oil in Victorian London and this has to be the coconut, because one doesn't normally make oil out of the cacao bean. There is such a thing, but it is made in tiny amounts, because it's like squeezing oil out of a coffee bean or a vanilla bean.

I think think these have to be coconut warehouses, and what was sold in the fruit market was coconut and not cacao.

[Joshua Rogan]

I think think these have to be coconut warehouses, and what was sold in the fruit market was coconut and not cacao.

Thanks rj, all very interesting since I hadn't given it a thought until I saw jerry's post, and I agree.
Still, whatever the exact meaning, cocoanuts can be linked to the vicinity of at least three murder sites, and a man who worked at a cocoanut warehouse and "visited a friend" near a fourth "found" a bloody knife. Why hasn't anyone proposed Coram as "Jack the Cocoa-nutter"?

[Dickere]

Thanks rj, all very interesting since I hadn't given it a thought until I saw jerry's post, and I agree.
Still, whatever the exact meaning, cocoanuts can be linked to the vicinity of at least three murder sites, and a man who worked at a cocoanut warehouse and "visited a friend" near a fourth "found" a bloody knife. Why hasn't anyone proposed Coram as "Jack the Cocoa-nutter"?

Or Great-grandad Creole perhaps...

[erobitha]

Or Great-grandad Creole perhaps...

[Fiver]

As there is evidence for the Dutfield's Yard knife being dumped...

So far, you have provided no evidence that the knife used to kill Elizabeth Stride was dumped.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

So far, you have provided no evidence that the knife used to kill Elizabeth Stride was dumped.

What was the closest I got?

[Losmandris]

It's very easy to misstep, Ero. There's 11 different crime scenes in the Whitechapel Murder files and a lifetime of information to digest.

Personally, I think the Kelly murder humbles all of us.

It seems overwhelmingly obvious that she must have been a victim of the same 'core' murderer, yet the crime's most basic element--the throat slash--is made in the opposite direction of the other 1888 murders.

So we are either looking at a different murderer, or we must admit that 'm.o.' isn't the cut-and-dry evidence that some would wish us to believe.

Sorry don't want to go off topic but doesn't the position of the bed against the wall have an impact here?

[Losmandris]

Though I believe the killer just used one knife (and killed both Stride and Eddowes) I don't think it is out of the bounds that he carried more than one knife on him, especially if he were a butcher or hate to say it a doctor by trade. To me, the thing that really links Stride and Eddowes is the MO, its just too similar not to be the same person. I don't think it is your typical throat cutting, the killer in both cases knew exactly what he was doing, used the same stealthy approach rendering them unconscious first before slashing the throat once they were incapacitated. If in the case of Stride, it was a domestic or some kind of street hassle the MO would have been completely different IMO. The only thing that really separates these murders is that JtR was either either disturbed, got freaked out somehow or Stride did something unexpected or out of the ordinary so he could not complete his task.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Thanks rj, all very interesting since I hadn't given it a thought until I saw jerry's post, and I agree.
Still, whatever the exact meaning, cocoanuts can be linked to the vicinity of at least three murder sites, and a man who worked at a cocoanut warehouse and "visited a friend" near a fourth "found" a bloody knife. Why hasn't anyone proposed Coram as "Jack the Cocoa-nutter"?

Other than considering Coram as a suspect, the issue with the knife where found, is that it just happened to be within a fixed point 'zone', and conveniently on a doorstep. Not some random spot along the gutter, or down some dark alley.
It seems it was intended that the police would find it. Yet there is nothing that could specifically tie it to any of the murders, unlike the Lusk letter. What is the point of throwing away such an impressive knife, without getting some 'kick' out of it?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Though I believe the killer just used one knife (and killed both Stride and Eddowes) I don't think it is out of the bounds that he carried more than one knife on him, especially if he were a butcher or hate to say it a doctor by trade. To me, the thing that really links Stride and Eddowes is the MO, its just too similar not to be the same person. I don't think it is your typical throat cutting, the killer in both cases knew exactly what he was doing, used the same stealthy approach rendering them unconscious first before slashing the throat once they were incapacitated. If in the case of Stride, it was a domestic or some kind of street hassle the MO would have been completely different IMO. The only thing that really separates these murders is that JtR was either either disturbed, got freaked out somehow or Stride did something unexpected or out of the ordinary so he could not complete his task.

Stride does not seem to have squealed more than a tiny bit, and the murderer must have known he could be disturbed at any moment, in that location. Yet he did it anyway, and, with the possible exception of leaving a knife behind, seems to have left no obvious sign of being interrupted. That hints at a premeditated murder. Why, is the obvious question. There is an answer that makes sense to me, which supposes that both murders were premeditated.

Prophecy Man actually predicted a murder, earlier in the night. PMG, Oct 1:

The police have received information that about half-past ten on Saturday night a man, aged about thirty three years, entered a public-house in Batty-street, Whitechapel, and while the customers in the house were in conversation about the Whitechapel murders he stated that he knew the murderer, and that they would hear about him in the morning, after which he left. It being thought that this was idle talk no notice was in this case taken of the matter, but after the murders had been discovered information was given to the police.

[Scott Nelson]

Other than considering Coram as a suspect, the issue with the knife where found, is that it just happened to be within a fixed point 'zone', and conveniently on a doorstep. Not some random spot along the gutter, or down some dark alley.
It seems it was intended that the police would find it. Yet there is nothing that could specifically tie it to any of the murders, unlike the Lusk letter. What is the point of throwing away such an impressive knife, without getting some 'kick' out of it?

Often a deranged criminal will drop a piece of incriminating evidence close to their doorstep. They may be so out-of-it they don't realize what they're doing.

[Fiver]

Assuming for the sake of argument that Stride and Eddowes were killed by the same hand, yet with different knifes, the obvious question is; why? What would be the point of using a different knife for 'number two'?
Perhaps the answer is; the murderer being disturbed in his work on 'number one', thought it prudent to leave the knife behind. He fled the scene without risking being caught with the knife on his person. This would suggest a very close thing.
So what happens to the knife, in this scenario - it obviously wasn't found in the yard or club, or on any person there. Evidently the knife has 'walked' - someone had been tasked with taking the knife off-site, and dumping it somewhere. The obvious candidate being Leon Goldstein.

Your theory has already contradicted itself. If the killer dropped his knife because he was interrupted, then that was an unplanned act, so there can be no plan for an accomplice to remove it.

[Fiver]

I think the body was pivoted around by those who discovered the body, to create a clear passage for Louis' cart.

How were they supposed to do that without leaving an obvious blood trail showing the body was dragged?

What would be the point of moving the body?

[Fiver]

If a few members are around the body right after its discovery, they can make a quick decision to get rid of the knife. That would mean each agrees it is the best thing to do, so the man who takes the knife away is not putting himself at risk of having another member of the club point the finger. They are comrades.

As to why they would make the decision to remove the knife, well two things come to mind. If the knife was similar in size and style to the knives of other club members, an obvious inference can be drawn. However, the knife presented at the inquest was a whopper, so that seems like an unlikely problem. Having said that, there may have been an effort to hide knives from the police ...

This makes no sense. Members of the International Working Men's Education Society were not issued special matching knives when they joined the group. Some of them might have had knives. Some of those knives might look a little like a hypothetical dropped knife. The same is true of the many non-clubmembers who entered Dutfield's Yard. Touching the knife is recklessly stupid - an outsider could walk in at any moment and see them. Discussing getting rid of the knife is pointless and recklessly stupid - an outsider could overhear them.

Perhaps a better reason is that, if the man were disturbed and left in such a hurry that he left his knife behind, why didn't they see him running off? They can get around that difficult question by removing the knife, which eliminates most of the evidence for a drop and run (a few drops of blood might remain).

This makes no sense for the same reasons. Even discussing disposing of the hypothetical dropped knife drastically increases the chance of the club being blamed. Even Michael's conspiracy theory make more sense than this.