Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Double Event

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post


    As there is evidence for the Dutfield's Yard knife being dumped, it could be argued that Goldstein is the least likely of the 3. Yet there is this curious story - https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...922#post756922
    Hi Andrew,

    That's not right though, is it? Your loading the deck in your favour. The evidence is that that knife was stated not to be the murder weapon.

    For all we know, it may well have been the murder weapon, dropped by Schwartz or Goldstein, smuggled out of Berner St, planted or whatever else. But you can't claim "evidence", when what evidence there is actually claims the total opposite.

    'As there is a theory' would be more accurate.
    Thems the Vagaries.....

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Al Bundy's Eyes View Post

      Hi Andrew,

      That's not right though, is it? Your loading the deck in your favour. The evidence is that that knife was stated not to be the murder weapon.

      For all we know, it may well have been the murder weapon, dropped by Schwartz or Goldstein, smuggled out of Berner St, planted or whatever else. But you can't claim "evidence", when what evidence there is actually claims the total opposite.

      'As there is a theory' would be more accurate.
      Hi Al.

      To me, 'theory' is a stronger word than 'evidence', as I think of a theory more in the scientific sense than the common sense.
      A theory is model of the world with substantial evidence supporting it. I guess the more common use of the word 'theory', is closer to what is probably better described as hypothesis. So go ahead and mentally substitute 'theory' for 'evidence' - that's fine by me.

      The murder weapon was regarded as being too long to have inflicted the wound as described, as she was found lying on her left side.
      So did the murderer place the victim on the ground, and then pull on the bow of the scarf to lift the victim to a point that he could cut on the left side side and avoid arterial spray? Sounds plausible, but which way would that leave the scarf turned?

      Blackwell: The deceased had round her neck a check silk scarf, the bow of which was turned to the left and pulled very tight.

      It was the 'wrong' way, so that theory doesn't work too well. Most likely she were cut when lying on her back, and the murderer got sauce on his shirt. Yet if she were on her back when murdered, the constraint on the size of the knife is lifted. So the knife smuggling theory still has legs.

      Thomas Coram: I live at No. 67, Plummer's-road, and work for a cocoanut dealer. On Monday shortly after midnight I left a friend's house in Bath-gardens, Brady-street. I walked straight down Brady-street and into Whitechapel-road towards Aldgate. I first walked on the right side of Whitechapel-road, and afterwards crossed over to the left, and when opposite No. 253 I saw a knife lying on the doorstep.

      My understanding is that Spectacle Alley is now called Whitechurch Passage. How close was 253 Whitechapel Road, in 1888, to Spectacle Alley?
      We already know something about that address...

      Baxter:
      What is No. 253?
      Coram: A laundry.
      Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

      Comment


      • #48
        A coconut dealer !

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Dickere View Post
          A coconut dealer !
          Was that a real job? Surely not!

          "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
          - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

          Comment


          • #50
            Daily News 1 Oct;

            "Access to Mitre-square is gained from three sides - Mitre-street, Duke-street, and St. James's-place - and the neighbourhood is given over to small houses and shops, chiefly inhabited by dealers in foreign fruits and nuts, grapes, peaches, cocoanuts, almonds, &c."

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by erobitha View Post

              Was that a real job? Surely not!
              The ELO refers to him being a labourer in a cocoanut warehouse. The business probably sold cocoanuts to costermongers.

              Daily News, Oct 1: Jews and Socialists frequent the club, and until an early hour in the morning dancing and singing often take place within its walls. The house is in charge of a man and his wife, who sleep on the premises. The man possesses a pony-cart, with which he is usually out during the greater part of the day, selling, it is said, cocoanuts and sweets.

              Part of a detailed description of the costermonger's attire:

              A well-to-do 'coster,' when dressed for the day's work, usually wears a small cloth cap, a little on one side.
              The costermonger, however, prides himself most of all upon his neckerchief and boots.


              Does that remind you of someone...?

              age 30 ht. 5 ft. 7 or 8 in. comp. fair fair moustache, medium built, dress pepper & salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same colour, reddish handkerchief tied in a knot, round neck, appearance of a sailor.

              Sailor, or coster?
              Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                The ELO refers to him being a labourer in a cocoanut warehouse. The business probably sold cocoanuts to costermongers.

                Daily News, Oct 1: Jews and Socialists frequent the club, and until an early hour in the morning dancing and singing often take place within its walls. The house is in charge of a man and his wife, who sleep on the premises. The man possesses a pony-cart, with which he is usually out during the greater part of the day, selling, it is said, cocoanuts and sweets.

                Part of a detailed description of the costermonger's attire:

                A well-to-do 'coster,' when dressed for the day's work, usually wears a small cloth cap, a little on one side.
                The costermonger, however, prides himself most of all upon his neckerchief and boots.
                Reminds of the UKTV programme Voices of Victorian London from a few years back. They dramatised extracts from Henry Mayhew's book:


                "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
                - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post
                  How close was 253 Whitechapel Road, in 1888, to Spectacle Alley?
                  We already know something about that address...

                  Baxter: [/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE]What is No. 253?
                  Coram: A laundry.
                  Not just any laundry. That was the laundry of Norah Christmas!!!

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post

                    Not just any laundry. That was the laundry of Norah Christmas!!!
                    I knew her father Scott. Chubby guy, long white beard.
                    Regards

                    Sir Herlock Sholmes



                    "Tis but a part we see, and not a whole."

                    ”Baroni licitum est dicere troglodytam”

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Dickere View Post
                      A coconut dealer !
                      Where Wentworth meets Commercial st. there is a Cocoanut Wharehouse.



                      Notice the Victoria Home in the bottom right corner, facing onto Commercial street.
                      Last edited by Wickerman; 06-05-2021, 11:41 PM.
                      Regards, Jon S.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Norah Christmas probably tried to wash Cohen's bloodstained clothing. Good luck with that. She then pops up at 35 Middlesex Street in the 1894 directory.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Dickere View Post
                          A coconut dealer !
                          Hi Dickere.

                          He probably didn't deal in coconuts, but cocoa-nuts and there is a difference, believe it or not. (Excerpt below taken from here, ‘Coconut’ vs. 'Cocoanut' | Merriam-Webster

                          The spelling cocoanut is rarely used in contemporary texts, the shift to coconut prompted possibly by a need to distinguish the word from an entirely different plant product, the cocoa nut.
                          The words “Cocoa” or “Koko,” etc., should never be used as an abbreviation for the name “Cocoanut,” as “Cocoa” describes an individual product of chocolate, and the word “Koko” implies same.
                          — V. L. Price, Confectioners' and Bakers' Gazette, Volume 36, 10 Jan. 1915


                          Cocoa nut is the obsolete name for the cacao nut, which itself is not technically a nut; it is, rather, the seed of the cacao tree. Cacao is the seed used in making cocoa; its name derives via Spanish from the Nahuatl cacahuatl.
                          Last edited by jerryd; 06-06-2021, 04:34 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                            Where Wentworth meets Commercial st. there is a Cocoanut Wharehouse.



                            Notice the Victoria Home in the bottom right corner, facing onto Commercial street.
                            Hi Wick.

                            I believe your map is about where Isaac Lewis Jacobs was tracked down by Constable Andrews. Jacobs referred to it as, Cocoanut Place.

                            "About ten minutes to 1 this morning I left home to buy some supper in M'Carthy's in Dorset-street. I had occasion to pass Newcastle-place into Old Castle-street. When I got to Cocoanut-place a constable ran up to me."

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                              The ELO refers to him being a labourer in a cocoanut warehouse. The business probably sold cocoanuts to costermongers.

                              Daily News, Oct 1: Jews and Socialists frequent the club, and until an early hour in the morning dancing and singing often take place within its walls. The house is in charge of a man and his wife, who sleep on the premises. The man possesses a pony-cart, with which he is usually out during the greater part of the day, selling, it is said, cocoanuts and sweets.

                              Part of a detailed description of the costermonger's attire:

                              A well-to-do 'coster,' when dressed for the day's work, usually wears a small cloth cap, a little on one side.
                              The costermonger, however, prides himself most of all upon his neckerchief and boots.


                              Does that remind you of someone...?

                              age 30 ht. 5 ft. 7 or 8 in. comp. fair fair moustache, medium built, dress pepper & salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same colour, reddish handkerchief tied in a knot, round neck, appearance of a sailor.

                              Sailor, or coster?
                              Horner & Sons located in Mitre Square most likely dealt in the sale of Cocoa-nuts/cocoanut oil and also breath sweets such as the kind found on Elizabeth Stride.

                              On a side note, Mr. Horner was a director of the newly formed (1888), Flameless Explosives Company which dealt in dynamite.

                              Good Words - Google Books (pages 272-276)

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                                I knew her father Scott. Chubby guy, long white beard.
                                A new suspect, Bad Santa

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X