How Many Victims Were There?

[jerryd]

Hi Jerry!

If I was to rank the victims, I´d probably have her at the bottom of the very likely list. I have never discounted her, though, and all things considered (the cutting was skillful and there was a lot of audacity involved in the dumping), I find she fits the bill. And overall, of course, it was never going to be more likely with two killers than just the one.
I have not read up on her lately, but there has been a lot of confusion about which part goes where and how many victims there were in 1884, plus there is a head involved which by and large is unexpected. So there are pros and cons...

Thanks Christer.

If trying to tie her in to the ripper crimes, I personally feel the way her face was mutilated is very reminiscent of the murder of Catherine Eddowes.

Have you read up on the unsolved murder of Mary Ann Yates in Burton Crescent? She was last seen alive with a man at the corner of Tottenham Court Road and Euston Road? She was murdered in March of 1884. Stunned over the left ear by a hard blow with a blunt object and then suffocated with a towel tied tightly around her mouth and nose.

[Fisherman]

The Yates thing is new to me. But I have seen you make the point about the facial damage before, and its a good one!

[Simon Wood]

The total number of Ripper victims relies heavily upon which particular theory is being pursued.

[rjpalmer]

I studied the Yates case years ago; the man seen at the corner of Tottenham Road was described as 25, fair-haired, and respectably dressed in a cutaway coat. Not a good match for 35 year old Lechmere in his (supposedly) bloody overalls. That said, this 'sighting' may have been a good two hours before the murder so there is no guarantee the man was Yates' eventual client. The crime went unsolved. Probably a more realistic case than either Millwood or Wilson, who have never struck me as anything more than modern-day straw grasping.

[Fisherman]

The total number of Ripper victims relies heavily upon which particular theory is being pursued.

Actually, the number relies on nothing but inherent similarities inbetween the victims, chronologically, geographically and physically. That is all such a number CAN rely on.

[Fisherman]

I studied the Yates case years ago; the man seen at the corner of Tottenham Road was described as 25, fair-haired, and respectably dressed in a cutaway coat. Not a good match for 35 year old Lechmere in his (supposedly) bloody overalls. That said, this 'sighting' may have been a good two hours before the murder so there is no guarantee the man was Yates' eventual client. The crime went unsolved. Probably a more realistic case than either Millwood or Wilson, who have never struck me as anything more than modern-day straw grasping.

Both Millwood and Wilson are 1888 cases, and that is what will have attracted the attention of Ripperologists. Yates is 1884, and so she will have attracted little interest - to the bulk of people, the Ripper is about a few months, at the very most.

Of course, once it is realized that the Ripper and the torso killer are more than likely the same man, that is a game changer...

[rjpalmer]

The crime that the Yates case really reminds me of is the murder of Harriet Buswell, who, I personally believe, was killed by Dr. Gottfried Hessel, who was wrongly exonerated.

[Fisherman]

The crime that the Yates case really reminds me of is the murder of Harriet Buswell, who, I personally believe, was killed by Dr. Gottfried Hessel, who was wrongly exonerated.

Why do you find the two murders alike? Boswell had her throat cut in 1872, twelve years before Yates fell prey by means of suffocation. What is the link?

[Fisherman]

I studied the Yates case years ago; the man seen at the corner of Tottenham Road was described as 25, fair-haired, and respectably dressed in a cutaway coat. Not a good match for 35 year old Lechmere in his (supposedly) bloody overalls.

Yates was killed on a Saturday night. So in all probability, Lechmere would not have been clad in his working gear on that night, just as he would not have been wearing working clothes on the night of the Stride/Eddowes murders. If, that is, Saturday was his night off - which is a reasonable thing to expect.

[Abby Normal]

Thanks Christer.

If trying to tie her in to the ripper crimes, I personally feel the way her face was mutilated is very reminiscent of the murder of Catherine Eddowes.

Have you read up on the unsolved murder of Mary Ann Yates in Burton Crescent? She was last seen alive with a man at the corner of Tottenham Court Road and Euston Road? She was murdered in March of 1884. Stunned over the left ear by a hard blow with a blunt object and then suffocated with a towel tied tightly around her mouth and nose.

hi jer
was yates dismembered? is she the same victim as the 1884 torso?

[Fisherman]

hi jer
was yates dismembered? is she the same victim as the 1884 torso?

Nope, she sustained a blow to the head but was ultimately suffocated by a piece of cloth tied hard over her mouth and nose. She was found in her own bed (she was prostituting herself, evidently). No cuts to the body.

[jerryd]

hi jer
was yates dismembered? is she the same victim as the 1884 torso?

No, Abby. I was merely pointing out that she was killed 'in the neighborhood' of the Tottenham Court victim around the same time. Even though that victim's parts [Tottenham Court torso] were found later in the fall, it was believed she was killed four to six months earlier. That puts us back to March/April/Mayish.

[Abby Normal]

Nope, she sustained a blow to the head but was ultimately suffocated by a piece of cloth tied hard over her mouth and nose. She was found in her own bed (she was prostituting herself, evidently). No cuts to the body.

so both yates and the 1884 torso victim had their faces mutilated?

[Abby Normal]

No, Abby. I was merely pointing out that she was killed 'in the neighborhood' of the Tottenham Court victim around the same time. Even though that victim's parts [Tottenham Court torso] were found later in the fall, it was believed she was killed four to six months earlier. That puts us back to March/April/Mayish.

thanks jer
why you think yates and Tottenham are linked? same time frame/location and facial mutilations? anything else?

[rjpalmer]

Why do you find the two murders alike? Boswell had her throat cut in 1872, twelve years before Yates fell prey by means of suffocation. What is the link?

I have my reasons.

For one, I'm not a great believer in the "science" (?) of 'signature,' Fish, though I admit, in a general sense, it can be useful within limits---just as long as one bears in mind that Kurten, et al., attacked his/their victims in various ways.

Nearly always when there is a 'series' that is solved, the cops find out that one or more of the crimes they attributed to the same chap weren't his work, and other crimes, never connected to the case, were his.

By the way, a half-sovereign was found among Yates' bedclothes. Ergo her murderous client was not the 'working chap' so beloved of Ripperologists. He had plenty of money.