How Many Victims Were There?

[APerno]

As you can see, I'm fairly liberal with my estimate but left out Tabram. I've never been convinced. She's the one murder that I can see as an occupational hazard. I don't see the killer going from frenzied stabbing at the upper body to methodical abdominal slicing in a few weeks. Martha probably pissed off the wrong punter.

IMHO, a drunken rage results in three to five blows, with the knife, max. By then Tabram would have been hurt enough to satisfy his rage. 39 blows, is more than rage, it is a mental illness. I have tried to visualize the act, and I can't see him making it through that many blows without having to take several breaths. Even a prize fighter can't throw 40 blows consecutively; he had to have stopped and started again several times; just can't see it as a single act of rage.

I am not saying it wasn't a pissed off punter that night, but whoever he was his act was beyond rage.

[Harry D]

Hey Abby. Good points but I wanted to address this in particular:

and if you don't see her as a precurser-whats the alternative? That with Nichols the rippers MO springs fully formed? I would posit millwood and tabram was his "learning" phase.

It's not so much the MO but the post-mortem signature that I'm interested in. With Nichols we can see where his interests lay but he didn't have the confidence or whatever to excise the organs. After getting away with that one, he grew bolder and more violent. I already think he may have killed some of the Torso victims at that stage, so the frenzied stabbing would be out of place for a guy whose signature was removing organs and body parts.

I can understand the attraction of plotting a neat little trajectory of the killer's escalation but Whitechapel was no stranger to violent crimes, and not all serial killers fit that mold. Some indeed do emerge with mo and signatures fully formed or close enough.

[Abby Normal]

IMHO, a drunken rage results in three to five blows, with the knife, max. By then Tabram would have been hurt enough to satisfy his rage. 39 blows, is more than rage, it is a mental illness. I have tried to visualize the act, and I can't see him making it through that many blows without having to take several breaths. Even a prize fighter can't throw 40 blows consecutively; he had to have stopped and started again several times; just can't see it as a single act of rage.

I am not saying it wasn't a pissed off punter that night, but whoever he was his act was beyond rage.

bingo. and nice point the killer having to actually stop at some point do to the number of blows. totally agree. and at which point the typical pissed off punter would have fled.

[Abby Normal]

Hey Abby. Good points but I wanted to address this in particular:



It's not so much the MO but the post-mortem signature that I'm interested in. With Nichols we can see where his interests lay but he didn't have the confidence or whatever to excise the organs. After getting away with that one, he grew bolder and more violent. I already think he may have killed some of the Torso victims at that stage, so the frenzied stabbing would be out of place for a guy whose signature was removing organs and body parts.

I can understand the attraction of plotting a neat little trajectory of the killer's escalation but Whitechapel was no stranger to violent crimes, and not all serial killers fit that mold. Some indeed do emerge with mo and signatures fully formed or close enough.

hi harry
this is why i think you are one of the most smart and level headed posters on this site. as you know i also favor the torsos as by the same killer. and you sussed out my main problem and which ive struggled with of including tabram and millwood in the series if torsoman and the ripper were the same because of the reasons youve pointed out. i could only offer that since these were torso rippers first street kills he was learning how to do them, as opposed to easier chop shop kills. but i totally see your point and you very well may be right.

[c.d.]

IMHO, a drunken rage results in three to five blows, with the knife, max. By then Tabram would have been hurt enough to satisfy his rage. 39 blows, is more than rage, it is a mental illness. I have tried to visualize the act, and I can't see him making it through that many blows without having to take several breaths. Even a prize fighter can't throw 40 blows consecutively; he had to have stopped and started again several times; just can't see it as a single act of rage.

I am not saying it wasn't a pissed off punter that night, but whoever he was his act was beyond rage.

This is a good point.

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

IMHO, a drunken rage results in three to five blows, with the knife, max. By then Tabram would have been hurt enough to satisfy his rage. 39 blows, is more than rage, it is a mental illness. I have tried to visualize the act, and I can't see him making it through that many blows without having to take several breaths. Even a prize fighter can't throw 40 blows consecutively; he had to have stopped and started again several times; just can't see it as a single act of rage.

I am not saying it wasn't a pissed off punter that night, but whoever he was his act was beyond rage.

It is a good point APerno but Tracie Andrews famously stabbed her fiancée Lee Harvey 42 times with a pen knife after an argument which she tried to blame on a road rage attack. As far as I know, and I’ll certainly stand correcting on this one, there was no suggestion of any underlying mental issues?

[APerno]

It is a good point APerno but Tracie Andrews famously stabbed her fiancée Lee Harvey 42 times with a pen knife after an argument which she tried to blame on a road rage attack. As far as I know, and I’ll certainly stand correcting on this one, there was no suggestion of any underlying mental issues?

LOL did she get it away with it? Fiancee, heh, lucky him, he missed out on the chance to fall asleep next to her.

[Herlock Sholmes]

LOL did she get it away with it? Fiancee, heh, lucky him, he missed out on the chance to fall asleep next to her.

No she got 14 years. I remember when the story broke in ‘96. She claimed that a guy had attacked her boyfriend in a road rage incident but from the start people were suspicious of her. Apparently she was released in 2011 and got married in 2017. I wonder what he thinks if they have an argument?

[Michael W Richards]

Hey Abby. Good points but I wanted to address this in particular:



It's not so much the MO but the post-mortem signature that I'm interested in. With Nichols we can see where his interests lay but he didn't have the confidence or whatever to excise the organs. After getting away with that one, he grew bolder and more violent. I already think he may have killed some of the Torso victims at that stage, so the frenzied stabbing would be out of place for a guy whose signature was removing organs and body parts.

I can understand the attraction of plotting a neat little trajectory of the killer's escalation but Whitechapel was no stranger to violent crimes, and not all serial killers fit that mold. Some indeed do emerge with mo and signatures fully formed or close enough.

Your last line is Harry is a belief I share, and its very evident within the known Canonical Group. To suggest a broader one is where I disagree. There are 2 murders that so closely resemble each other in all the relevant categories, and that have that escalation you mention. I am satisfied with pairing them by killer based on the known evidence, and I feel that there are asterixis on a few remaining Canonicals. Polly and Annie almost certainly met their death by the same hand, in the same manner, and with the same methods. The escalation seen in the latter murder can be attributed to a more suitable venue for extending time with the dead woman.

Polly and Annie met someone who posed as a character, a client, and when they led him into the darkness, he struck quickly. That they looked very similar, and both were less than physically well at the time, one ill.. one drunk, may be significant in his choice for a target as well. And these 2 murders were the first 2 in the alleged series, the hysteria began after Annie. He was still able to pull of his masquerade at that time, but later in September Im sure most street women were either working less, in groups, or working more alertly. It would have been harder for him as stranger to them to get them to do what he hoped they would. The stranger factor is another key component here I think...I don't believe Jack the Ripper knew his victims. I do believe one or more of the Canonicals did know him.

Its, as you put it, an "mo and signature fully formed".

[Sleuth1888]

I would say Tabram plus the C5. This is because I believe the dates of the murders are too similar to suggest different killers. 7, 8, 9 and 30/31. This suggests a killer who was free at these times to kill.

I also think he must have been busy or unable to go out on other days as the killings always occur at the start or end of the month.
It's a big coincidence that if he went prowling every night he only killed on the 7th/8th or 30th/31st of a month...

[Fisherman]

and if you don't see her as a precurser-whats the alternative? That with Nichols the rippers MO springs fully formed? I would posit millwood and tabram was his "learning" phase.

I don´t think the Rippers MO arrived fully formed with Nichols as the first victim. I believe that the killer likely will have had previous killing experience.

The problem is that I am convinced that the person who killed Mary Kelly in November 1888 was also responsible for killing the 1873 torso victim. That may not seem like a problem, since it would explain how he could be confident enough to kill Nichols the way he did fifteen years later. However, I think the 1873 murder is even more explicit and calculating than the Nichols ditto, and so I would place any practice rounds before that date, and - consequently - I´d be less inclined to regard Millwood and Wilson as Ripper victims.

What must be added is that Nichols may be his first slaying in the open streets (Tabram was inside George Yard buildings), and if so, then it may be that Millwood and Wilson belong to the tally anyway. Going from killing in secluded surroundings, controlling all the parameters yourself, to killing out in the open street, thereby abandoning a lot of that control, is quite a leap, and it could well account for a less controlled approach - and result.

My list would involve the 1873 torso victim, the 1874 ditto, the 1884 torso victim, the Rainham victim, Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, The Whitehall torso, Stride, Eddowes, Kelly, Liz Jackson, Alice McKenzie and the Pinchin Street torso as very likely victims of the same man. Then there are others who are likely in varying degrees, but all of them less clear candidates.

The question of a learning curve is a very interesting one whichever way we look upon the murders.

[jerryd]

I don´t think the Rippers MO arrived fully formed with Nichols as the first victim. I believe that the killer likely will have had previous killing experience.

The problem is that I am convinced that the person who killed Mary Kelly in November 1888 was also responsible for killing the 1873 torso victim. That may not seem like a problem, since it would explain how he could be confident enough to kill Nichols the way he did fifteen years later. However, I think the 1873 murder is even more explicit and calculating than the Nichols ditto, and so I would place any practice rounds before that date, and - consequently - I´d be less inclined to regard Millwood and Wilson as Ripper victims.

What must be added is that Nichols may be his first slaying in the open streets (Tabram was inside George Yard buildings), and if so, then it may be that Millwood and Wilson belong to the tally anyway. Going from killing in secluded surroundings, controlling all the parameters yourself, to killing out in the open street, thereby abandoning a lot of that control, is quite a leap, and it could well account for a less controlled approach - and result.

My list would involve the 1873 torso victim, the 1874 ditto, the 1884 torso victim, the Rainham victim, Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, The Whitehall torso, Stride, Eddowes, Kelly, Liz Jackson, Alice McKenzie and the Pinchin Street torso as very likely victims of the same man. Then there are others who are likely in varying degrees, but all of them less clear candidates.

The question of a learning curve is a very interesting one whichever way we look upon the murders.

Hi Christer,

Did you have a change of heart on the 1884 victim? I seem to recall you discounted her from your list in the past. I could be wrong in thinking that?

If so, why the change? Just curious.

[Abby Normal]

I don´t think the Rippers MO arrived fully formed with Nichols as the first victim. I believe that the killer likely will have had previous killing experience.

The problem is that I am convinced that the person who killed Mary Kelly in November 1888 was also responsible for killing the 1873 torso victim. That may not seem like a problem, since it would explain how he could be confident enough to kill Nichols the way he did fifteen years later. However, I think the 1873 murder is even more explicit and calculating than the Nichols ditto, and so I would place any practice rounds before that date, and - consequently - I´d be less inclined to regard Millwood and Wilson as Ripper victims.

What must be added is that Nichols may be his first slaying in the open streets (Tabram was inside George Yard buildings), and if so, then it may be that Millwood and Wilson belong to the tally anyway. Going from killing in secluded surroundings, controlling all the parameters yourself, to killing out in the open street, thereby abandoning a lot of that control, is quite a leap, and it could well account for a less controlled approach - and result.

My list would involve the 1873 torso victim, the 1874 ditto, the 1884 torso victim, the Rainham victim, Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, The Whitehall torso, Stride, Eddowes, Kelly, Liz Jackson, Alice McKenzie and the Pinchin Street torso as very likely victims of the same man. Then there are others who are likely in varying degrees, but all of them less clear candidates.

The question of a learning curve is a very interesting one whichever way we look upon the murders.

hi fish
yes I pretty much agree with this. but Im about 40% on Wilson being a ripper and or torsoripper victim. which is why I didn't include her in my tally.

so If I have to choose between yes or no it would be: millwood, tabram, c5, McKenzie, torsos(at least the 80s ones).

[Abby Normal]

Ok.

Ill list the potential victims. If posters put yes, no, or maybe next to them we’ll be able to get figures. For convenience I’ll include the torso’s as a series with one vote.

Annie Millwood
Ada Wilson
Emma Smith
Martha Tabram
Mary Nichols
Annie Chapman
Elizabeth Stride
Catherine Eddowes
Mary Kelly
Alice Mackenzie
Frances Coles
Torso’s

HI HS

yes no maybe:

Annie Millwood-yes

Ada Wilson-maybe

Emma Smith-no

Martha Tabram-yes

Mary Nichols-yes

Annie Chapman-yes

Elizabeth Stride-yes

Catherine Eddowes-yes

Mary Kelly-yes

Alice Mackenzie-yes

Frances Coles-no

Torso’s-yes

probability:

Annie Millwood-80%

Ada Wilson-40%

Emma Smith-10%

Martha Tabram-90%

Mary Nichols-100

Annie Chapman-100

Elizabeth Stride-95

Catherine Eddowes-100

Mary Kelly-100

Alice Mackenzie-90

Frances Coles-10

Torso’s-70

[Fisherman]

Hi Christer,

Did you have a change of heart on the 1884 victim? I seem to recall you discounted her from your list in the past. I could be wrong in thinking that?

If so, why the change? Just curious.

Hi Jerry!

If I was to rank the victims, I´d probably have her at the bottom of the very likely list. I have never discounted her, though, and all things considered (the cutting was skillful and there was a lot of audacity involved in the dumping), I find she fits the bill. And overall, of course, it was never going to be more likely with two killers than just the one.
I have not read up on her lately, but there has been a lot of confusion about which part goes where and how many victims there were in 1884, plus there is a head involved which by and large is unexpected. So there are pros and cons...