Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

How Many Victims Were There?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by John Wheat View Post

    I disagree how many mad men with knives do you think we're running about a small area of London all of a sudden and at the same time?
    Quite a few, I'd have thought, albeit possibly only one who got his rocks off by pulling women's guts out.
    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

    Comment


    • Here’s one. The incident took place on the morning of Annie Chapman’s murder.
      Attached Files
      Last edited by MrBarnett; 08-18-2019, 07:56 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by John Wheat View Post

        I disagree how many mad men with knives do you think we're running about a small area of London all of a sudden and at the same time?
        Lots John, how many that disemboweled or disarticulated their victims, far less. Consider that the Unsolved Murders file is around 13 victims. The Canonical Group, as established by many contemporary investigators is five of those. The area the Five were killed in is historically significant for the very reason we had murders in the first place,... extreme poverty, alcoholism, overcrowding, dissatisfaction with the government and democracy, Freedom fighters, large nocturnal population....etc. Knives were abundant, but men who chose to use them to kill and then gut women in public were not.
        Michael Richards

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

          Consider that the Unsolved Murders file is around 13 victims. The Canonical Group, as established by many contemporary investigators is five of those...
          Accepting that for the sake of argument, and supposing that the non-canonical murders were committed by different perpetrators, it could be argued that at least eight persons carrying knives (and using them to kill) were at large during that period.
          Kind regards, Sam Flynn

          "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post

            Accepting that for the sake of argument, and supposing that the non-canonical murders were committed by different perpetrators, it could be argued that at least eight persons carrying knives (and using them to kill) were at large during that period.
            That's my take too Sam, and although I can see other multiple murders by one killer within that same larger group..like the Torsos, its evident that fatal knife usage wasn't restricted to Jack The Ripper. As we agree on Sam, disemboweling victims in the streets was.
            Michael Richards

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post

              Accepting that for the sake of argument, and supposing that the non-canonical murders were committed by different perpetrators, it could be argued that at least eight persons carrying knives (and using them to kill) were at large during that period.
              which eight victims sam?
              "Is all that we see or seem
              but a dream within a dream?"

              -Edgar Allan Poe


              "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
              quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

              -Frederick G. Abberline

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                That's my take too Sam, and although I can see other multiple murders by one killer within that same larger group..like the Torsos, its evident that fatal knife usage wasn't restricted to Jack The Ripper. As we agree on Sam, disemboweling victims in the streets was.
                How many of Gareths eight knife-wielders performed eviscerations? How many cut away parts of the abdominal walls? Were there any such perpetrators, other than in the Ripper/Torso series?
                Last edited by Fisherman; 08-19-2019, 02:07 PM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                  which eight victims sam?
                  It was just a thought-experiment, Abby. Whatever those 13 unsolved murders referred to by Michael were, minus the Canonical Five.
                  Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                  "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post

                    It was just a thought-experiment, Abby. Whatever those 13 unsolved murders referred to by Michael were, minus the Canonical Five.
                    Hi Sam and Michael
                    well other than the C5 the WC murder file has smith, tabram, pinchin, McKenzie, coles. correct? who are the others?
                    "Is all that we see or seem
                    but a dream within a dream?"

                    -Edgar Allan Poe


                    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                    -Frederick G. Abberline

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                      Hi Sam and Michael
                      well other than the C5 the WC murder file has smith, tabram, pinchin, McKenzie, coles. correct? who are the others?
                      Don't forget Mylett. As to the rest, I make it there were 11 Whitechapel Murders in all, but perhaps Michael has another two in mind from elsewhere in London.

                      As I say, it's only a thought experiment. My main point was that, assuming JTR didn't kill ALL the non-canonical victims, and that they in turn were killed by different men, then we're almost certainly dealing with several different knife-wielding killers at large.
                      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post

                        Don't forget Mylett. As to the rest, I make it there were 11 Whitechapel Murders in all, but perhaps Michael has another two in mind from elsewhere in London.

                        As I say, it's only a thought experiment. My main point was that, assuming JTR didn't kill ALL the non-canonical victims, and that they in turn were killed by different men, then we're almost certainly dealing with several different knife-wielding killers at large.
                        Murder by knife was and is a very common type of homicide.

                        Evisceration murder was and is a very rare thing.

                        Let's not loose sight of that.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                          Lots John, how many that disemboweled or disarticulated their victims, far less. Consider that the Unsolved Murders file is around 13 victims. The Canonical Group, as established by many contemporary investigators is five of those. The area the Five were killed in is historically significant for the very reason we had murders in the first place,... extreme poverty, alcoholism, overcrowding, dissatisfaction with the government and democracy, Freedom fighters, large nocturnal population....etc. Knives were abundant, but men who chose to use them to kill and then gut women in public were not.
                          All true but I might add the mutilations of the C5 with the exception of Liz Stride were not common place.

                          Comment


                          • Bingo, John Wheat!

                            If we look at the statistics for murder in the US of 2017, we will find that the commonest type of murder is committed with a handgun (roughly 7000 in 2017). The next commonest type is other firearms (roughly 3000 in 2017). Thereafter follows knife violence (roughly 1500 in 2017).
                            Obviously, there were not many firearms around in London in 1888, and so knife violence will have dominated.

                            If we turn to serial killing, much is changed. In FBI:s "Serial Murder - pathways for investigation", by the behavioral analysis unit of the FBI, 480 cases or serial murder in the US from between 1960-2006 were investigated, and the result that was found was that around 80 per cent of the murders were sexually motivated. The most common method of killing here was strangulation. In six of the 480 cases, there were eviscerations.

                            That is six cases in 46 years. Meaning that there was roughly one such case every seventh year in the cases that were investigated, while there was roughly ten cases of serial murder every year.

                            Making comparisons between regular knife violence and the type of knife violence that surfaced in the Ripper and Torso series is not very viable. Yes, there were more than one person capable of knife violence in London in 1888. But no, not every person capable of knife violence is likely to eviscerate his or her victim/s. Only a minuscule fraction of people will do that. Luckily, they are very, very few and very, very far apart in time and place, owing to the scarcity of these slayings.

                            Comment


                            • im not sure what the point is being made here about a lot of knife wielding men at the time. sure many men carried knives.

                              but violent as it was-murder was rare at the time in WC, especially of women. Of the the victims in the WC murder file-smith and mylett are out of this argument since no knife was involved. the c5 plus tabram and McKenzie were IMHO probably killed by the ripper as maybe pinchin. Coles was probably killed by sadler (But maybe someone else or the ripper)
                              so for this argument ive got two possibly three knife wielding killers for all the unsolved knife murders in the WC file and coles/sadler being probably a domestic. so that's the ripper, pinchin and coles three different men (although pinnchin and coles COULD have been the same man as the ripper-im being conservative to be fair).

                              not sure of this talk of eight or so knife wielding killers then.
                              Last edited by Abby Normal; 08-19-2019, 04:40 PM.
                              "Is all that we see or seem
                              but a dream within a dream?"

                              -Edgar Allan Poe


                              "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                              quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                              -Frederick G. Abberline

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                                Bingo, John Wheat!

                                If we look at the statistics for murder in the US of 2017, we will find that the commonest type of murder is committed with a handgun (roughly 7000 in 2017). The next commonest type is other firearms (roughly 3000 in 2017). Thereafter follows knife violence (roughly 1500 in 2017).
                                Obviously, there were not many firearms around in London in 1888, and so knife violence will have dominated.

                                If we turn to serial killing, much is changed. In FBI:s "Serial Murder - pathways for investigation", by the behavioral analysis unit of the FBI, 480 cases or serial murder in the US from between 1960-2006 were investigated, and the result that was found was that around 80 per cent of the murders were sexually motivated. The most common method of killing here was strangulation. In six of the 480 cases, there were eviscerations.

                                That is six cases in 46 years. Meaning that there was roughly one such case every seventh year in the cases that were investigated, while there was roughly ten cases of serial murder every year.

                                Making comparisons between regular knife violence and the type of knife violence that surfaced in the Ripper and Torso series is not very viable. Yes, there were more than one person capable of knife violence in London in 1888. But no, not every person capable of knife violence is likely to eviscerate his or her victim/s. Only a minuscule fraction of people will do that. Luckily, they are very, very few and very, very far apart in time and place, owing to the scarcity of these slayings.
                                exactly fish-and I think that pretty much gets right down to it.
                                "Is all that we see or seem
                                but a dream within a dream?"

                                -Edgar Allan Poe


                                "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                                quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                                -Frederick G. Abberline

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X