How Many Victims Were There?

[John G]

Ok.

Ill list the potential victims. If posters put yes, no, or maybe next to them we’ll be able to get figures. For convenience I’ll include the torso’s as a series with one vote.

Annie Millwood: No
Ada Wilson: Maybe but unlikely
Emma Smith: Maybe
Martha Tabram: Maybe
Mary Nichols: Yes
Annie Chapman: Yes
Elizabeth Stride: Maybe
Catherine Eddowes: Yes
Mary Kelly: Yes, but with caveats.
Alice Mackenzie: Maybe
Frances Coles: No
Torso’s: Definitely No!

See my reply above.

[Abby Normal]

hi Jerry!
Very interesting find! Where is this from and is there any corroborating evidence for this apparent murder?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ok.

Ill list the potential victims. If posters put yes, no, or maybe next to them we’ll be able to get figures. For convenience I’ll include the torso’s as a series with one vote.

Annie Millwood
Ada Wilson
Emma Smith
Martha Tabram
Mary Nichols
Annie Chapman
Elizabeth Stride
Catherine Eddowes
Mary Kelly
Alice Mackenzie
Frances Coles
Torso’s

[Herlock Sholmes]

Just list them in sequence with options of yes,undecided and no.

C5 will stand out,with Stride in the middle.

Probably the best, and maybe the only option Dave

[DJA]

A question - is there any way of doing a real poll on all of the potential victims where I could list all of the possibles and get posters to tick any that they agreed with. I don’t want to end up with each as a percentage of the whole though (ie that the total votes add up to 100) I want a poll that tells us - what percentage favour Tabram - what percentage favour Nichols etc.

Is there anyway of achieving this without beginning a new thread on each victim?

Just list them in sequence with options of yes,undecided and no.

C5 will stand out,with Stride in the middle.

[jerryd]

[Abby Normal]

As you can see, I'm fairly liberal with my estimate but left out Tabram. I've never been convinced. She's the one murder that I can see as an occupational hazard. I don't see the killer going from frenzied stabbing at the upper body to methodical abdominal slicing in a few weeks. Martha probably pissed off the wrong punter.

hi harry
perhaps-but I don't think so. the usual pissed off punter would have beaten her up at most maybe cut her once or twice. this is way post mortem overkill.

and we have to remember that martha was stabbed, but Nichols had stab wounds too. I see a natural progression.

millwood-stabbed lower parts
Tabram-stabbed-lower parts neck targeted
Nichols-stabbed lower parts-neck sliced-abdomen gashed

and if you don't see her as a precurser-whats the alternative? That with Nichols the rippers MO springs fully formed? I would posit millwood and tabram was his "learning" phase.

and, as you mentioned on the other thread re McKenzie-Tabram had her skirts raised also like most of the rest, showing the target of the rippers desire-privates/lower abdomen. the skirt raised is actually kind of the clincher for both Tabram and McKenzie for me.

[Herlock Sholmes]

As you can see, I'm fairly liberal with my estimate but left out Tabram. I've never been convinced. She's the one murder that I can see as an occupational hazard. I don't see the killer going from frenzied stabbing at the upper body to methodical abdominal slicing in a few weeks. Martha probably pissed off the wrong punter.

I tend to agree with that one Harry. I’ve always suspected a drunken rage.

[Harry D]

A question - is there any way of doing a real poll on all of the potential victims where I could list all of the possibles and get posters to tick any that they agreed with. I don’t want to end up with each as a percentage of the whole though (ie that the total votes add up to 100) I want a poll that tells us - what percentage favour Tabram - what percentage favour Nichols etc.

As you can see, I'm fairly liberal with my estimate but left out Tabram. I've never been convinced. She's the one murder that I can see as an occupational hazard. I don't see the killer going from frenzied stabbing at the upper body to methodical abdominal slicing in a few weeks. Martha probably pissed off the wrong punter.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thanks for the opinions guys.

It was interesting for me to see the wide range of views from 18 posters which gives the lie to the suggestion that those interested in the case are just blindly adhering to some orthodoxy. We go from as low as 2 or 3 victims (from 2 posters) right up to 10 (from 2 or possibly 3 posters) 6 posters went for the c5 but others used percentages for all victims. Only 1 poster appeared certain about Tabram but at least 3 had her as possible/probable. 1 for Mackenzie but 3 possibles. 2 posters attribute the Torso’s to JTR.

Certainly a mixed bag.

A question - is there any way of doing a real poll on all of the potential victims where I could list all of the possibles and get posters to tick any that they agreed with. I don’t want to end up with each as a percentage of the whole though (ie that the total votes add up to 100) I want a poll that tells us - what percentage favour Tabram - what percentage favour Nichols etc.

Is there anyway of achieving this without beginning a new thread on each victim?

[John Wheat]

Definitely none of the Torso victims the evidence just isn't there.

[FISHY1118]

Nichols , Chapman , Stride, Eddowes ,Kelly for sure. Torso.... nah. Definitely not Martha Tabram.

[Sam Flynn]

The "one sweep of the knife" bit came from an editorial piece in the Lancet, not Dr Phillips.

[John G]

When discussing things here informally, which I must say I miss, he was very gracious in offering his personal insights when asked specific and informed questions. The pause when it comes to Kate is, for me, based on some circumstantial evidence and some recognizable differences in how the knife was used when compared with Annies injuries. I can see many, many men in that area who would fit a general description of "Man seen with Victim" carrying, and able to use, a knife of some sort. For basic utility reasons alone. Many of them might have rudimentary knowledge of anatomy, through the preparation of hunting catches maybe, or as a part of their workday. That's all that Kates killer needs.

Annies killer went a notch above that level, and went after what he wanted. In a logical manner, with some degree of skill and knowledge. Knowledge, like the kind a medical student being trained in dissection might display as he goes about his business." There were no meaningless cuts". I think if you use only the murders of Polly and Annie as a baseline for a profile, youll find that person doesn't seem to be present in the murders that followed. The ones presumed to be by Jack that is.

With regard to Chapman, unfortunately we are dependent upon Dr Phillips' opinion, which is problematic for me as I consider his "one sweep of the knife" comment to be absurd. We cannot know that another medical professional would have come to the same conclusion. In fact, presumably Dr Bond did not. There also seems to have been sine disagreement, between Dr Brown and Dr Sequeria, regarding the level of anatomical skill demonstrated by Eddowes' perpetrator.

[John Wheat]

The C5 as a minimum.