How Many Victims Were There?

[Abby Normal]

Thanks Christer.

If trying to tie her in to the ripper crimes, I personally feel the way her face was mutilated is very reminiscent of the murder of Catherine Eddowes.

Have you read up on the unsolved murder of Mary Ann Yates in Burton Crescent? She was last seen alive with a man at the corner of Tottenham Court Road and Euston Road? She was murdered in March of 1884. Stunned over the left ear by a hard blow with a blunt object and then suffocated with a towel tied tightly around her mouth and nose.

hi jer
was yates dismembered? is she the same victim as the 1884 torso?

[Fisherman]

I studied the Yates case years ago; the man seen at the corner of Tottenham Road was described as 25, fair-haired, and respectably dressed in a cutaway coat. Not a good match for 35 year old Lechmere in his (supposedly) bloody overalls.

Yates was killed on a Saturday night. So in all probability, Lechmere would not have been clad in his working gear on that night, just as he would not have been wearing working clothes on the night of the Stride/Eddowes murders. If, that is, Saturday was his night off - which is a reasonable thing to expect.

[Fisherman]

The crime that the Yates case really reminds me of is the murder of Harriet Buswell, who, I personally believe, was killed by Dr. Gottfried Hessel, who was wrongly exonerated.

Why do you find the two murders alike? Boswell had her throat cut in 1872, twelve years before Yates fell prey by means of suffocation. What is the link?

[rjpalmer]

The crime that the Yates case really reminds me of is the murder of Harriet Buswell, who, I personally believe, was killed by Dr. Gottfried Hessel, who was wrongly exonerated.

[Fisherman]

I studied the Yates case years ago; the man seen at the corner of Tottenham Road was described as 25, fair-haired, and respectably dressed in a cutaway coat. Not a good match for 35 year old Lechmere in his (supposedly) bloody overalls. That said, this 'sighting' may have been a good two hours before the murder so there is no guarantee the man was Yates' eventual client. The crime went unsolved. Probably a more realistic case than either Millwood or Wilson, who have never struck me as anything more than modern-day straw grasping.

Both Millwood and Wilson are 1888 cases, and that is what will have attracted the attention of Ripperologists. Yates is 1884, and so she will have attracted little interest - to the bulk of people, the Ripper is about a few months, at the very most.

Of course, once it is realized that the Ripper and the torso killer are more than likely the same man, that is a game changer...

[Fisherman]

The total number of Ripper victims relies heavily upon which particular theory is being pursued.

Actually, the number relies on nothing but inherent similarities inbetween the victims, chronologically, geographically and physically. That is all such a number CAN rely on.

[rjpalmer]

I studied the Yates case years ago; the man seen at the corner of Tottenham Road was described as 25, fair-haired, and respectably dressed in a cutaway coat. Not a good match for 35 year old Lechmere in his (supposedly) bloody overalls. That said, this 'sighting' may have been a good two hours before the murder so there is no guarantee the man was Yates' eventual client. The crime went unsolved. Probably a more realistic case than either Millwood or Wilson, who have never struck me as anything more than modern-day straw grasping.

[Simon Wood]

The total number of Ripper victims relies heavily upon which particular theory is being pursued.

[Fisherman]

The Yates thing is new to me. But I have seen you make the point about the facial damage before, and its a good one!

[jerryd]

Hi Jerry!

If I was to rank the victims, I´d probably have her at the bottom of the very likely list. I have never discounted her, though, and all things considered (the cutting was skillful and there was a lot of audacity involved in the dumping), I find she fits the bill. And overall, of course, it was never going to be more likely with two killers than just the one.
I have not read up on her lately, but there has been a lot of confusion about which part goes where and how many victims there were in 1884, plus there is a head involved which by and large is unexpected. So there are pros and cons...

Thanks Christer.

If trying to tie her in to the ripper crimes, I personally feel the way her face was mutilated is very reminiscent of the murder of Catherine Eddowes.

Have you read up on the unsolved murder of Mary Ann Yates in Burton Crescent? She was last seen alive with a man at the corner of Tottenham Court Road and Euston Road? She was murdered in March of 1884. Stunned over the left ear by a hard blow with a blunt object and then suffocated with a towel tied tightly around her mouth and nose.

[Fisherman]

Hi Christer,

Did you have a change of heart on the 1884 victim? I seem to recall you discounted her from your list in the past. I could be wrong in thinking that?

If so, why the change? Just curious.

Hi Jerry!

If I was to rank the victims, I´d probably have her at the bottom of the very likely list. I have never discounted her, though, and all things considered (the cutting was skillful and there was a lot of audacity involved in the dumping), I find she fits the bill. And overall, of course, it was never going to be more likely with two killers than just the one.
I have not read up on her lately, but there has been a lot of confusion about which part goes where and how many victims there were in 1884, plus there is a head involved which by and large is unexpected. So there are pros and cons...

[Abby Normal]

Ok.

Ill list the potential victims. If posters put yes, no, or maybe next to them we’ll be able to get figures. For convenience I’ll include the torso’s as a series with one vote.

Annie Millwood
Ada Wilson
Emma Smith
Martha Tabram
Mary Nichols
Annie Chapman
Elizabeth Stride
Catherine Eddowes
Mary Kelly
Alice Mackenzie
Frances Coles
Torso’s

HI HS

yes no maybe:

Annie Millwood-yes

Ada Wilson-maybe

Emma Smith-no

Martha Tabram-yes

Mary Nichols-yes

Annie Chapman-yes

Elizabeth Stride-yes

Catherine Eddowes-yes

Mary Kelly-yes

Alice Mackenzie-yes

Frances Coles-no

Torso’s-yes

probability:

Annie Millwood-80%

Ada Wilson-40%

Emma Smith-10%

Martha Tabram-90%

Mary Nichols-100

Annie Chapman-100

Elizabeth Stride-95

Catherine Eddowes-100

Mary Kelly-100

Alice Mackenzie-90

Frances Coles-10

Torso’s-70

[Abby Normal]

I don´t think the Rippers MO arrived fully formed with Nichols as the first victim. I believe that the killer likely will have had previous killing experience.

The problem is that I am convinced that the person who killed Mary Kelly in November 1888 was also responsible for killing the 1873 torso victim. That may not seem like a problem, since it would explain how he could be confident enough to kill Nichols the way he did fifteen years later. However, I think the 1873 murder is even more explicit and calculating than the Nichols ditto, and so I would place any practice rounds before that date, and - consequently - I´d be less inclined to regard Millwood and Wilson as Ripper victims.

What must be added is that Nichols may be his first slaying in the open streets (Tabram was inside George Yard buildings), and if so, then it may be that Millwood and Wilson belong to the tally anyway. Going from killing in secluded surroundings, controlling all the parameters yourself, to killing out in the open street, thereby abandoning a lot of that control, is quite a leap, and it could well account for a less controlled approach - and result.

My list would involve the 1873 torso victim, the 1874 ditto, the 1884 torso victim, the Rainham victim, Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, The Whitehall torso, Stride, Eddowes, Kelly, Liz Jackson, Alice McKenzie and the Pinchin Street torso as very likely victims of the same man. Then there are others who are likely in varying degrees, but all of them less clear candidates.

The question of a learning curve is a very interesting one whichever way we look upon the murders.

hi fish
yes I pretty much agree with this. but Im about 40% on Wilson being a ripper and or torsoripper victim. which is why I didn't include her in my tally.

so If I have to choose between yes or no it would be: millwood, tabram, c5, McKenzie, torsos(at least the 80s ones).

[jerryd]

I don´t think the Rippers MO arrived fully formed with Nichols as the first victim. I believe that the killer likely will have had previous killing experience.

The problem is that I am convinced that the person who killed Mary Kelly in November 1888 was also responsible for killing the 1873 torso victim. That may not seem like a problem, since it would explain how he could be confident enough to kill Nichols the way he did fifteen years later. However, I think the 1873 murder is even more explicit and calculating than the Nichols ditto, and so I would place any practice rounds before that date, and - consequently - I´d be less inclined to regard Millwood and Wilson as Ripper victims.

What must be added is that Nichols may be his first slaying in the open streets (Tabram was inside George Yard buildings), and if so, then it may be that Millwood and Wilson belong to the tally anyway. Going from killing in secluded surroundings, controlling all the parameters yourself, to killing out in the open street, thereby abandoning a lot of that control, is quite a leap, and it could well account for a less controlled approach - and result.

My list would involve the 1873 torso victim, the 1874 ditto, the 1884 torso victim, the Rainham victim, Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, The Whitehall torso, Stride, Eddowes, Kelly, Liz Jackson, Alice McKenzie and the Pinchin Street torso as very likely victims of the same man. Then there are others who are likely in varying degrees, but all of them less clear candidates.

The question of a learning curve is a very interesting one whichever way we look upon the murders.

Hi Christer,

Did you have a change of heart on the 1884 victim? I seem to recall you discounted her from your list in the past. I could be wrong in thinking that?

If so, why the change? Just curious.

[Fisherman]

and if you don't see her as a precurser-whats the alternative? That with Nichols the rippers MO springs fully formed? I would posit millwood and tabram was his "learning" phase.

I don´t think the Rippers MO arrived fully formed with Nichols as the first victim. I believe that the killer likely will have had previous killing experience.

The problem is that I am convinced that the person who killed Mary Kelly in November 1888 was also responsible for killing the 1873 torso victim. That may not seem like a problem, since it would explain how he could be confident enough to kill Nichols the way he did fifteen years later. However, I think the 1873 murder is even more explicit and calculating than the Nichols ditto, and so I would place any practice rounds before that date, and - consequently - I´d be less inclined to regard Millwood and Wilson as Ripper victims.

What must be added is that Nichols may be his first slaying in the open streets (Tabram was inside George Yard buildings), and if so, then it may be that Millwood and Wilson belong to the tally anyway. Going from killing in secluded surroundings, controlling all the parameters yourself, to killing out in the open street, thereby abandoning a lot of that control, is quite a leap, and it could well account for a less controlled approach - and result.

My list would involve the 1873 torso victim, the 1874 ditto, the 1884 torso victim, the Rainham victim, Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, The Whitehall torso, Stride, Eddowes, Kelly, Liz Jackson, Alice McKenzie and the Pinchin Street torso as very likely victims of the same man. Then there are others who are likely in varying degrees, but all of them less clear candidates.

The question of a learning curve is a very interesting one whichever way we look upon the murders.