How Many Victims Were There?

[Semper_Eadem]

I don't want to say how many victims there were, as JTR was never caught. We don't even know for certain who exactly his first victims were.

[Busy Beaver]

Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes 100% JTR, Stride not sure, as I doubt very much that Broad Shoulder man that Schwartz saw was JTR. I'm pretty much convinced JTR was doing his hardest to not blow his cover and was doing his absolute best not ever to be caught. Kelly- all depends on timings and if she ever did go out of her room after 1.30am on Saturday morning 9th of November. If JTR was a complete stranger to MJK, he didn't go knocking on her door. Tabrum- Could have been the first trial murder to build up some courage/ test the waters so to speak. Mackenzie not sure. Torso murders not JTR.

[Abby Normal]

I understand your reasoning, even if I am not in the same place as you. We are probably not going to get to a similar position in the near future, but just to demonstrate why I have a way to go to agree the similarities are convincing in identifying the two sets of murders as being by one man, I have reproduced a summary of a description of a more recent murder below - which simply cannot have been by the same murderer since this murder took place in 1947 - but there are similarities with ripper and torso murders which I believe are impossible to avoid with this type of murder.

Her severely mutilated body was completely severed at the waist and drained entirely of blood, leaving her skin a pallid white. Medical examiners determined that she had been dead for around ten hours prior to the discovery. Her face had been slashed from the corners of her mouth to her ears, creating an effect known as the "Glasgow smile". She had several cuts on her thigh and breasts, where entire portions of flesh had been sliced away. The lower half of her body was positioned a foot away from the upper, and her intestines had been tucked neatly beneath her buttocks. The corpse had been "posed", with her hands over her head, her elbows bent at right angles, and her legs spread apart.

yup the black dahlia. kind of surprising this was done to her, the extant and variety of damage, and yet apparently a one off. seems like it would be the work of a serial killer. point taken.

[etenguy]

hi eten
the best way to hide someones identity is to make sure theyre bodies are never found in the first place. The torso killer did the opposite IMHO in that regard. But I concede, while trying to make the dumpings public (and I think there is someother reason only known to the killer where and why he dumped the torso/parts) he may have also tried to hide the identities as you mentioned. I mean only one WAS Ided, so I would be remiss not to acknowledge that, but I think there are other reasons why the rest of the torsos weren't, and not because the killer tried to.

and I agree-they do APPARENTLY look like two separate series-I also thought t

to me we are probably dealing with the same killer- a post mortem serial killer who likes to cut up prostitutes with a secondary motivation of enjoying the shock to the public. apparent differences can be chalked up to one single different circ-the killers chop shop wasn't available (and possibly increasing thrill in more phat myself. Until I found out that all the torsos had post mortem mutilations above and beyond what is needed for dismemberment disposal. and of course the myriad other detailed and specific similarities.
Also, In general one thing that has struck me with serial killers, and why I tend to be more expansive and inclusive when dealing with unsolved serial killer sprees-More often than not, once the killer is apprehended, the extent of there crimes tends to be vastly more, not less.ublic murders).

I understand your reasoning, even if I am not in the same place as you. We are probably not going to get to a similar position in the near future, but just to demonstrate why I have a way to go to agree the similarities are convincing in identifying the two sets of murders as being by one man, I have reproduced a summary of a description of a more recent murder below - which simply cannot have been by the same murderer since this murder took place in 1947 - but there are similarities with ripper and torso murders which I believe are impossible to avoid with this type of murder.

Her severely mutilated body was completely severed at the waist and drained entirely of blood, leaving her skin a pallid white. Medical examiners determined that she had been dead for around ten hours prior to the discovery. Her face had been slashed from the corners of her mouth to her ears, creating an effect known as the "Glasgow smile". She had several cuts on her thigh and breasts, where entire portions of flesh had been sliced away. The lower half of her body was positioned a foot away from the upper, and her intestines had been tucked neatly beneath her buttocks. The corpse had been "posed", with her hands over her head, her elbows bent at right angles, and her legs spread apart.

[Abby Normal]

I don't dismiss the link regarding facial mutilations, but eyes, nose, mouth, cheeks and ears are about all there are to target on the face and the way they have been attacked seems different to me. It seems to me, and I realise this is subjective, the torso killer was trying to hide the victims' identity (and mostly by taking the head away and hiding/destroying) and the ripper was not trying to hide identity but revelling in the mutilations. So although both may have attacked/removed the head (all the victims by the torso killer and two victims of the ripper) the reasons were quite different and the approach quite different. It doesn't immediately make me think the two sets of murders are linked - in fact quite the opposite. Of course this is me reading into the action of the killer(s) and I don't have full information, so could be quite wrong.

hi eten
the best way to hide someones identity is to make sure theyre bodies are never found in the first place. The torso killer did the opposite IMHO in that regard. But I concede, while trying to make the dumpings public (and I think there is someother reason only known to the killer where and why he dumped the torso/parts) he may have also tried to hide the identities as you mentioned. I mean only one WAS Ided, so I would be remiss not to acknowledge that, but I think there are other reasons why the rest of the torsos weren't, and not because the killer tried to.

and I agree-they do APPARENTLY look like two separate series-I also thought that myself. Until I found out that all the torsos had post mortem mutilations above and beyond what is needed for dismemberment disposal. and of course the myriad other detailed and specific similarities.
Also, In general one thing that has struck me with serial killers, and why I tend to be more expansive and inclusive when dealing with unsolved serial killer sprees-More often than not, once the killer is apprehended, the extent of there crimes tends to be vastly more, not less.

to me we are probably dealing with the same killer- a post mortem serial killer who likes to cut up prostitutes with a secondary motivation of enjoying the shock to the public. apparent differences can be chalked up to one single different circ-the killers chop shop wasn't available (and possibly increasing thrill in more public murders).

[etenguy]

hi eten
they both had the cheek slashed eyes targeted and nose cut off-so to me anyway its very similar. added that facial mutilations are extremely rare by serial killers and that only strengthens the link for me. just me though, no big wup, and I realize im in the minority on this one too.

I don't dismiss the link regarding facial mutilations, but eyes, nose, mouth, cheeks and ears are about all there are to target on the face and the way they have been attacked seems different to me. It seems to me, and I realise this is subjective, the torso killer was trying to hide the victims' identity (and mostly by taking the head away and hiding/destroying) and the ripper was not trying to hide identity but revelling in the mutilations. So although both may have attacked/removed the head (all the victims by the torso killer and two victims of the ripper) the reasons were quite different and the approach quite different. It doesn't immediately make me think the two sets of murders are linked - in fact quite the opposite. Of course this is me reading into the action of the killer(s) and I don't have full information, so could be quite wrong.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby

Are the facial mutilations very similar, other than the nose tip being cut off in both. The Tottenham mutilations (eyes gouged out, a nasty glasgow smile gash right up the cheek and nose tip removed) - eddowes - nose tip cut off, ear lobe cut off, v shaped cheek cuts, eyelids nicked. I'm not sure I would describe these as very similar.

hi eten
they both had the cheek slashed eyes targeted and nose cut off-so to me anyway its very similar. added that facial mutilations are extremely rare by serial killers and that only strengthens the link for me. just me though, no big wup, and I realize im in the minority on this one too.

[etenguy]

no I see what your saying sam. eventhough tabram to chapman there is no facial mutilations, with eddowes and Kelly It can be chalked up to escalation in the ripper series-I hear ya.

neverthe less the 84 Tottenham torso and eddowes have very similar facial mutilations-which of course points to the same killer, and the link strengthened by the rarity of it. but your point is taken.

Hi Abby

Are the facial mutilations very similar, other than the nose tip being cut off in both. The Tottenham mutilations (eyes gouged out, a nasty glasgow smile gash right up the cheek and nose tip removed) - eddowes - nose tip cut off, ear lobe cut off, v shaped cheek cuts, eyelids nicked. I'm not sure I would describe these as very similar.

[Sam Flynn]

The Daily News, Nov 10th did say it was severed, and Bond mentions the arms "mutilated" by several jagged wounds, and "extensive and jagged wounds"...might we infer since we don't really see any of those wounds in the photos, that the right arm "extensive" wounds might resemble a disarticulation attempt?

I wouldn't say so, Michael - we see extensive and jagged wounds on her left arm, and they don't resemble a disarticulation attempt. I think the "myth of disarticulation" must have come about through a misunderstanding of what Bond meant by "abducted", which is a standard medical/anatomical term with a very specific meaning. Per the OED, it means "to draw away any member of the body away from its natural or ordinary position". So specific is this term that the muscles which allow such movements to happen are called "abductors".

[Michael W Richards]

"Completely different"? Yes, I have heard it described like that before, the cutting from ribcage to pelvis, the taking out of hearts, the taking out of colon sections, the taking out of uteri, the cutting away of the abdominal wall, the stealing of rings, the targeting of prostitutes, the silent murders, the pointing out by medicos of a large cutting skill rivaling that of a surgeon.
Its just that I don't think it is a correct description at all. It is a knee-jerk description, inherits from generations of not very insightful research. The dismemberment and dumping is the SOLE difference there is, and as I keep feeding those teflon-lined ears of yours: may serialists have occasionally dabbled in dismemberment without making it a rule.

Dismemberment and dumping are reason enough to deflect suspicions from a killer, (you know...Jack the Ripper...killed women in the streets and backyards...left the bodies as is....that guy?)...who did neither of those things.

I should add that what was taken is relevant here Fisherman, because as I pointed out, Annie was killed and cut the way she was so the killer could obtain her uterus...."there were no meaningless cuts". Can you say that For Liz...nope, there were no additional cuts...or Kate, hard to believe cutting her nose, her apron and colon section helped him to obtain the kidney and "partial" uterus...or that Marys killer felt it necessary to denude her leg of flesh so he could get her heart.

[Michael W Richards]

I don't think I have. Besides, we have very detailed notes from Dr Bond, so I see no need at all to resort to any other sources.

The Daily News, Nov 10th did say it was severed, and Bond mentions the arms "mutilated" by several jagged wounds, and "extensive and jagged wounds"...might we infer since we don't really see any of those wounds in the photos, that the right arm "extensive" wounds might resemble a disarticulation attempt?

[Abby Normal]

But not with Tabram, Nichols, Stride or Chapman, all of whose murders post-dated 1873 and 1884, of course, and pre-dated Eddowes and Kelly
. You'd think that, if he was responsible for both those earlier torso murders, he'd have carried on where he left off from the outset of the Autumn of Terror.

no I see what your saying sam. eventhough tabram to chapman there is no facial mutilations, with eddowes and Kelly It can be chalked up to escalation in the ripper series-I hear ya.

neverthe less the 84 Tottenham torso and eddowes have very similar facial mutilations-which of course points to the same killer, and the link strengthened by the rarity of it. but your point is taken.

[Sam Flynn]

another point which I believe may be overlooked somewhat in similarities between the two series-the facial mutilations. We have it with the 73 toros case and the 84 totenham torso and eddowes and Kelly.

But not with Tabram, Nichols, Stride or Chapman, all of whose murders post-dated 1873 and 1884, of course, and pre-dated Eddowes and Kelly
. You'd think that, if he was responsible for both those earlier torso murders, he'd have carried on where he left off from the outset of the Autumn of Terror.

[Abby Normal]

another point which I believe may be overlooked somewhat in similarities between the two series-the facial mutilations. We have it with the 73 toros case and the 84 totenham torso and eddowes and Kelly. Post mortem facial mutilations are extremely rare in serial killers-almost if not more rare than excising internal organs-and yet we have both in both series-with the Tottenham case and eddowes being nearly identical.

[Sam Flynn]

There are reports it was almost severed Sam, I don't have one at my disposal at the moment but Im sure you've seen them too.

I don't think I have. Besides, we have very detailed notes from Dr Bond, so I see no need at all to resort to any other sources.