How Many Victims Were There?

[Abby Normal]

A man who attacks strangers and murders them and the disembowels them on the spot, leaving them to be found shortly thereafter with their identity roughly recognizable, is very different from a man that kidnaps a victim...(there is no evidence any Torso was taken away to be cut up already murdered), and over days and weeks kills them and takes them apart, disposing of some parts in the river, or in less than obvious locations, preventing any sure identification in the short run. Some Torsos we will never know for sure who they were.

The man who disemboweled in the streets could have been caught by any accidental passer by, cop or citizen, but the man who disarticulated could have worked a normal job, gone home to the family, and done some grisly work at a warehouse before retiring for the night. Once he had his victim stashed away somewhere private, he had all the time in the world with no police to breathe down his neck, or passer by to spoils his future plans. He also had no opportunity for the rush the street killer had, knowing that any minute he could be caught.

That rush may be on his hit list.

Hi MR

A

man who attacks strangers and murders them and the disembowels them on the spot, leaving them to be found shortly thereafter with their identity roughly recognizable, is very different from a man that kidnaps a victim...(there is no evidence any Torso was taken away to be cut up already murdered), and over days and weeks kills them and takes them apart, disposing of some parts in the river, or in less than obvious locations, preventing any sure identification in the short run. Some Torsos we will never know for sure who they were.

torsoman "kidnapped" his victims? umm don't think so. no evidence they were kidnapped at all. in all likelihood rused to a private secluded spot, more than likely his chop shop. killed quickly and they were cut up soon after death. no sign of torture. totally different than a kidnapper who abducts victims and keeps them alive to torture and sexually abused over the course of some time.

so seemingly both torsoman and the ripper used a ruse to get the victim where they wanted to quickly kill and mutilate .and apparent difference could be simple fact his chop shop not available yet the urge is still there.

[Michael W Richards]

Surely an act like mutilation in whatever form it takes isn't the main characteristic to use as a "link" from the alleged Ripper series to the Torsos, the way the mutilations were carried out...the focus, whether in public/private, whether done rapidly/leisurely, ….those are far more telling about the characteristics of the killer. The man who made Torsos and the men who killed and then mutilated the other women in the Unsolved Files were decidedly different.. characteristically.

Ive cited here in the past case where killers imitate actions of other killers, sometimes those initial acts themselves help instigate these subsequent murders, or some just influence.

[APerno]

Hi Ap
next step? do it again. the ripper apparently kept going with his attack on McKenzie-although the apparent lay off may have "satisfied" him for awhile.

torsoman (if your inclined to believe he was separate from the ripper) apparently also "indoors had the opportunity to satisfy whatever illness he was suffering from" with earlier victims and yet still kept going.

I don't think serial killers necessarily ever stop once they have achieved some final goal-if they ever really have one (although perhaps a case could be made for Kemper-although his explanation for stopping was more along the lines of getting burnt out/ it was all getting to out of control.)

That is what I was suggesting "for awhile" -- not that he would stop

Which incidentally (but not relevant) fits well with the torso killer (whoever he may have been, LOL) free to kill at leisure his murders are well spaced, over a prolonged period of time, suggesting that each event brought some (temporary) level of satisfaction.

During the 15 week period from Tabram to Kelly, Saucy Jacky seemed locked in a frenzy and then with MJK he reached some (temporary) satisfaction and was able to stay his hand for at least awhile.

To me the Ripper murders look to be what some profiliers (sp) call a disorganized, opportunist marauder, while the torso killer looks organized; well planned. So I am in the 'different murderer' camp.

BTW to me the C5 are Tabram in, Stride out.

[Abby Normal]

When I was writing "finally indoors" I actually stopped and thought, 'do I have to write in a torso killer disclaimer'?

I am not complaining and I enjoyed that you used the post to break balls . . . as a regular lurker I can tell you over the past six months the torso killer-Ripper connection, here on Casebook, has grown so strong it seems to be creating a revisionist temperament, with all the murders and all the evidence getting parsed against the torso killings.

Wonder if that is good or bad? An new insight into the killer or just another rabbit hole?

lol re torso killer disclaimer-I just saw this before I posted my last post-so yes apparently you do! ; )

[Abby Normal]

What does offer some credence to that premise was the extent of the MJK slaying. Finally indoors he had the opportunity to satisfy whatever illness he was suffering from and was able to walk away from it for at least a while. You think about it, what could (in action) have been his next step? There really wasn't anything more he could do to a woman than what he did to Mary Kelly.

Hi Ap
next step? do it again. the ripper apparently kept going with his attack on McKenzie-although the apparent lay off may have "satisfied" him for awhile.

torsoman (if your inclined to believe he was separate from the ripper) apparently also "indoors had the opportunity to satisfy whatever illness he was suffering from" with earlier victims and yet still kept going.

I don't think serial killers necessarily ever stop once they have achieved some final goal-if they ever really have one (although perhaps a case could be made for Kemper-although his explanation for stopping was more along the lines of getting burnt out/ it was all getting to out of control.)

[Harry D]

What does offer some credence to that premise was the extent of the MJK slaying. Finally indoors he had the opportunity to satisfy whatever illness he was suffering from and was able to walk away from it for at least a while. You think about it, what could (in action) have been his next step? There really wasn't anything more he could do to a woman than what he did to Mary Kelly.

That's the traditional narrative, isn't it? But do we know the killer's motivation?

[APerno]

Indeed, "finally indoors". What hope for the Pinchin Street victim, then? Oh, hang on a minute! She only sustained a superficial wound to her belly, and there were no wounds to her thorax or arms...

"Torsoripper" fans, take note.

When I was writing "finally indoors" I actually stopped and thought, 'do I have to write in a torso killer disclaimer'?

I am not complaining and I enjoyed that you used the post to break balls . . . as a regular lurker I can tell you over the past six months the torso killer-Ripper connection, here on Casebook, has grown so strong it seems to be creating a revisionist temperament, with all the murders and all the evidence getting parsed against the torso killings.

Wonder if that is good or bad? An new insight into the killer or just another rabbit hole?

[Sam Flynn]

Finally indoors he had the opportunity to satisfy whatever illness he was suffering from and was able to walk away from it for at least a while.

Indeed, "finally indoors". What hope for the Pinchin Street victim, then? Oh, hang on a minute! She only sustained a superficial wound to her belly, and there were no wounds to her thorax or arms...

"Torsoripper" fans, take note.

[APerno]

A lot of theorists see the killer as a firework that went on a bloody spree and then fizzled out. However, we know there are notorious serial killers who took prolonged breaks before killing again. Personally, I think the murders continued to at least 1889 with McKenzie and possibly the torsos. There could've also been much later murders which were the work of the Ripper.

What does offer some credence to that premise was the extent of the MJK slaying. Finally indoors he had the opportunity to satisfy whatever illness he was suffering from and was able to walk away from it for at least a while. You think about it, what could (in action) have been his next step? There really wasn't anything more he could do to a woman than what he did to Mary Kelly.

[Michael W Richards]

I agree with Michael. We are dealing with different killers.

I almost fell out of my chair John....agreement? Can there be agreement on anything?

[John Wheat]

I agree with Michael. We are dealing with different killers.

[Michael W Richards]

indeed Harry
if one looks at the torsoripper as someone whos main motivation was post mortem mutilation and the cutting up of female bodies with a growing secondary motivation of the shock and attention he got (from the public, press and police) then the way the overall series plays out makes sense. First you have torso victims and their parts dumped in the river, then more public and shocking torso dumpings, then the ripper victims. with the start of the ripper victims overlapping and continuing with the torso victims and the overall series ending with McKenzie and Pinchin. it starts with torsos and ends with torsos, with the ripper spree coming near the end.

Makes total sense to me and fits a logical narrative.

A man who attacks strangers and murders them and the disembowels them on the spot, leaving them to be found shortly thereafter with their identity roughly recognizable, is very different from a man that kidnaps a victim...(there is no evidence any Torso was taken away to be cut up already murdered), and over days and weeks kills them and takes them apart, disposing of some parts in the river, or in less than obvious locations, preventing any sure identification in the short run. Some Torsos we will never know for sure who they were.

The man who disemboweled in the streets could have been caught by any accidental passer by, cop or citizen, but the man who disarticulated could have worked a normal job, gone home to the family, and done some grisly work at a warehouse before retiring for the night. Once he had his victim stashed away somewhere private, he had all the time in the world with no police to breathe down his neck, or passer by to spoils his future plans. He also had no opportunity for the rush the street killer had, knowing that any minute he could be caught.

That rush may be on his hit list.

[Abby Normal]

A lot of theorists see the killer as a firework that went on a bloody spree and then fizzled out. However, we know there are notorious serial killers who took prolonged breaks before killing again. Personally, I think the murders continued to at least 1889 with McKenzie and possibly the torsos. There could've also been much later murders which were the work of the Ripper.

indeed Harry
if one looks at the torsoripper as someone whos main motivation was post mortem mutilation and the cutting up of female bodies with a growing secondary motivation of the shock and attention he got (from the public, press and police) then the way the overall series plays out makes sense. First you have torso victims and their parts dumped in the river, then more public and shocking torso dumpings, then the ripper victims. with the start of the ripper victims overlapping and continuing with the torso victims and the overall series ending with McKenzie and Pinchin. it starts with torsos and ends with torsos, with the ripper spree coming near the end.

Makes total sense to me and fits a logical narrative.

[Michael W Richards]

Only if you count them, which is a moot point. There was a huge gap (more than eight months) between Kelly and McKenzie, for a start, and McKenzie's death wasn't convincingly Ripper-like. The Pinchin Street case, which followed a further two months after McKenzie, was not Ripper-like in the slightest.

That "Ripper-like" phrase refers to something that is for some reason largely ignored Sam, which is that there is a distinctive style and MO and Signature evident within just the Canonical Group, let alone that larger group in the Unsolved File...(the number I used includes some more speculative victims that people still argue for inclusion, in our Victims file here). It shows a specific way of conducting his business, from the apprehension, to the achievement of his specific goals once the victim is incapacitated. The fact that these key characteristics are lacking in many of these other murders should help people see these contrasts clearer, but the tendency is to change the killer rather than follow the evidence.

That some of these were committed out in public where the risks were the greatest indicates to me that the either the thrill was something he also liked, or that he wasn't consciously aware of what kind of situation he was putting himself into. I think for me the 2 most "Ripper-like" victims suggest that he was probably the latter sort of fellow. He was mad. And once in the throes of his passion he couldnt help himself. His best response to the threat he creates is to work quickly, but at that point he has to keep going. My guess is that he was a little pissed after Pollys murder, mutilatus interruptus.

[Harry D]

A lot of theorists see the killer as a firework that went on a bloody spree and then fizzled out. However, we know there are notorious serial killers who took prolonged breaks before killing again. Personally, I think the murders continued to at least 1889 with McKenzie and possibly the torsos. There could've also been much later murders which were the work of the Ripper.