For what reason do we include Stride?

[Abby Normal]

We have every reason to doubt Schwartz.

There is no evidence that Liz was dragged or forced into the yard. No defensive wounds, no abrasions, clothes undisturbed. Didn't drop a single cachou the entire time. No one else could corroborate Schwartz's narrative. No one else heard the altercation between the two. You believe that after her tussle with BS Man, Liz went willingly into the shadows with her guard down? Now that's insanity!

perhaps but I doubt it. I think she may have been dragged in there by him. her scarf was pulled tight. its only a few fet away. or he cut her throat during the initial tussle and she stumbled into the yard towards the voices of the club and perceived help only to expire there.

[Harry D]

so a shout of a jewish slur at jewish man is supposed to implicate a goy in her murder?
wow. so BS man is a lie and dreamed up by a club conspiracy? surprised at this from you Harry. your usually one of the more clear headed posters on here.

so we have a man that witnesses her being assaulted with no reason to doubt him, moments before her body was found. A man who sees a suspect with her that matches descriptions of other witnesses who saw a man with stride (and eddowes for that moment).

and Schwartz, new to the country is going to jeopardize his life and families, legally, to lie and protect the club in a big and famous murder investigation? really?

and the club members are going to invent some convoluted scheme to protect the club? involving many people, any of which could crack and spill the beans, or even refuse to go along with it from the beginning? all in the spur of the moment? if they wanted to deflect suspicion, all they had to do was move her body a short distance out of the yard. heck they even have diemshitz cart right there.

and you think all this nonsense just because shes found holding something in her hand? after modern forensic science has shown, time and again that its not uncommon for victims of violent death to be found clutching something in there hand.

its insanity.

We have every reason to doubt Schwartz.

There is no evidence that Liz was dragged or forced into the yard. No defensive wounds, no abrasions, clothes undisturbed. Didn't drop a single cachou the entire time. No one else could corroborate Schwartz's narrative. No one else heard the altercation between the two. You believe that after her tussle with BS Man, Liz went willingly into the shadows with her guard down? Now that's insanity!

[Abby Normal]

It makes more sense that Stride had the cachous because she was with a punter or suitor moments before her death and her guard was down, than ending up there with them still in hand after she assaulted. If we take Schwartz's uncorroborated story out of the equation we are presented with no problem as to how Stride ended up in the yard. Also, the police seem to have dropped Schwartz's evidence, just as they dropped Hutchinson's, so obviously they had reservations about it.



"Lipski" was a known antisemitic slur. That it was directed at Pipeman makes no difference, as he could've been tipping off his "accomplice" to the Jewish witness. I think the inclusion of "Lipski" alone was supposed to implicate a goyim.

so a shout of a jewish slur at jewish man is supposed to implicate a goy in her murder?
wow. so BS man is a lie and dreamed up by a club conspiracy? surprised at this from you Harry. your usually one of the more clear headed posters on here.

so we have a man that witnesses her being assaulted with no reason to doubt him, moments before her body was found. A man who sees a suspect with her that matches descriptions of other witnesses who saw a man with stride (and eddowes for that moment).

and Schwartz, new to the country is going to jeopardize his life and families, legally, to lie and protect the club in a big and famous murder investigation? really?

and the club members are going to invent some convoluted scheme to protect the club? involving many people, any of which could crack and spill the beans, or even refuse to go along with it from the beginning? all in the spur of the moment? if they wanted to deflect suspicion, all they had to do was move her body a short distance out of the yard. heck they even have diemshitz cart right there.

and you think all this nonsense just because shes found holding something in her hand? after modern forensic science has shown, time and again that its not uncommon for victims of violent death to be found clutching something in there hand.

its insanity.

[Harry D]

Hi Harry D,

Well, whether by BS or someone else, she ends up on the ground and has her throat cut clutching the cachous, so I don't quite see how someone else is better than BS due to those. He was seen throwing her about, and pushes her up the alley, and kills her. While he's rough handling her, she's holding her mints so as not to lose them, not realizing his intent is more severe than just pushing her about. I'm not sure the cachous or the location, alone or combined, is enough for me to see the Schwartz's story as a conspiracy by the club to deflect attention. For all we know, BS could have put the sweets in her hand after he killed her even (though that's pure speculation of course). I guess, for me, getting rid of BS doesn't seem to actually solve the cachous, if they're even a problem requiring solving, and the location is entirely consistent with where BS was reported to have been roughing her up.

It makes more sense that Stride had the cachous because she was with a punter or suitor moments before her death and her guard was down, than ending up there with them still in hand after she assaulted. If we take Schwartz's uncorroborated story out of the equation we are presented with no problem as to how Stride ended up in the yard. Also, the police seem to have dropped Schwartz's evidence, just as they dropped Hutchinson's, so obviously they had reservations about it.

And if the club was making up a story, trying to deflect things away from the Jews, why would Schwartz's story include BS shouting Lipski at a presumed accomplice, which is how Schwartz told the story? That is only serving to suggest Jewish involvement, sort of the opposite of what I understand you to be suggesting they want to do. Remember, it was only later suggested by Anderson that Schwartz was most likely mistaken and it was probably shouted at Schwartz himself, not at Pipeman. (Schwartz did say he couldn't be sure it was directed at pipeman, but it's what he assumed).

"Lipski" was a known antisemitic slur. That it was directed at Pipeman makes no difference, as he could've been tipping off his "accomplice" to the Jewish witness. I think the inclusion of "Lipski" alone was supposed to implicate a goyim.

[JeffHamm]

First of all, it doesn't mesh with the murder scene. Stride clutching the cachous as she's manhandled to the floor, dragged into the yard and silenced. Unless we're supposed to believe that Stride went willingly into pitch darkness with her assailant or retreated into there, which is equally improbable. There were no signs of a struggle. No signs she was taken against her will. Hard to believe the killer swooped in mere moments after BS Man roughed her up.

We all know that the antisemitism was a powder-keg at the time. Last thing the jewish anarchists wanted was a Ripper victim on their doorstep. They had to do something to deflect any suspicion from them. Too risky to be caught moving the body. Enter Schwartz, stage right. A supposed outsider, Schwartz may have been walked past the club that night, he may have even seen Stride with a bloke, but I think the incident with BS Man was a load of...

Hi Harry D,

Well, whether by BS or someone else, she ends up on the ground and has her throat cut clutching the cachous, so I don't quite see how someone else is better than BS due to those. He was seen throwing her about, and pushes her up the alley, and kills her. While he's rough handling her, she's holding her mints so as not to lose them, not realizing his intent is more severe than just pushing her about. I'm not sure the cachous or the location, alone or combined, is enough for me to see the Schwartz's story as a conspiracy by the club to deflect attention. For all we know, BS could have put the sweets in her hand after he killed her even (though that's pure speculation of course). I guess, for me, getting rid of BS doesn't seem to actually solve the cachous, if they're even a problem requiring solving, and the location is entirely consistent with where BS was reported to have been roughing her up.

And if the club was making up a story, trying to deflect things away from the Jews, why would Schwartz's story include BS shouting Lipski at a presumed accomplice, which is how Schwartz told the story? That is only serving to suggest Jewish involvement, sort of the opposite of what I understand you to be suggesting they want to do. Remember, it was only later suggested by Anderson that Schwartz was most likely mistaken and it was probably shouted at Schwartz himself, not at Pipeman. (Schwartz did say he couldn't be sure it was directed at pipeman, but it's what he assumed).

- Jeff

[Sam Flynn]

In the given scenario, I agree that a man who is obviously seen at relatively close range by 1 or 2 people would be unlikely to go on and kill that same victim a few minutes later. I would say that a man intent on committing post mortem mutilations even less so.

I'd never thought of it quite like that before, but I agree.

[Michael W Richards]

As for Stride being a domestic it seems strange that no one heard any argument after Schwartz left. In addition, Stride was not slapped around the face area and there are no frenzied stabs to the body which you would expect with a domestic. That seems a bit strange.

Stride did have bruises on her chest, she was choked with her scarf, she was perhaps being intimidated at the time of her murder. I just wanted to remind you that the bigger picture here says no one heard or saw Israel Schwartz or his reported incident, despite there being someone with an open door who stated she would hear footsteps when they passed her door, let alone a yell. Israel's statement is not on record of having been submitted in any format or considered in any way relevant to the Inquest question of how Liz Stride died, which is completely counter intuitive considering its content and timing.

I still find it hard to accept that the B.S. man would go on to kill her after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man. Why not simply run off if at that point all you had done was push a woman to the ground?

In the given scenario, I agree that a man who is obviously seen at relatively close range by 1 or 2 people would be unlikely to go on and kill that same victim a few minutes later. I would say that a man intent on committing post mortem mutilations even less so.

c.d.

The manner in which she was killed suggests a spur of the moment decision made, a momentary lapse in control, it doesn't appear to be a premeditated event by the evidence. I would imagine that the killer of Polly and Annie was seasoned a bit and knew what he had to do and how quickly to work and then slip away unseen.

C1 and C2 were almost certainly killed as a means to an end, not merely as an ending. Liz was ended.

[Harry D]

What makes you think Schwartz was making up what he reported seeing? I believe someone has posted details suggesting that pipeman may have been identified and interviewed (and cleared of involvement).

First of all, it doesn't mesh with the murder scene. Stride clutching the cachous as she's manhandled to the floor, dragged into the yard and silenced. Unless we're supposed to believe that Stride went willingly into pitch darkness with her assailant or retreated into there, which is equally improbable. There were no signs of a struggle. No signs she was taken against her will. Hard to believe the killer swooped in mere moments after BS Man roughed her up.

We all know that the antisemitism was a powder-keg at the time. Last thing the jewish anarchists wanted was a Ripper victim on their doorstep. They had to do something to deflect any suspicion from them. Too risky to be caught moving the body. Enter Schwartz, stage right. A supposed outsider, Schwartz may have been walked past the club that night, he may have even seen Stride with a bloke, but I think the incident with BS Man was a load of...

[harry]

There was no second attack if the first encounter was instigated by Stride.

[JeffHamm]

Unless you take Schwartz and his imaginary antisemite out of the equation. Then you've no need to reconcile BS Man and the cachous with the murder scene.

What makes you think Schwartz was making up what he reported seeing? I believe someone has posted details suggesting that pipeman may have been identified and interviewed (and cleared of involvement).

[Harry D]

Unless you take Schwartz and his imaginary antisemite out of the equation. Then you've no need to reconcile BS Man and the cachous with the murder scene.

[JeffHamm]

Hi The trouble I have is would you go into a darkened passageway with someone who has just assaulted you? And would you kill someone when you have at least one witness seeing you assault the victim seconds before? And if Liz did have a pimp who had roughed her up on several occasions wouldn't Kidney have mentioned this to the police?

Maybe she fled into the alley way towards the door, he panics thinking she'.ll get help and he'll be pursued, he grabs her scarf, she falls, and he kills her then and there and flees, having been spotted by two people.

Hmmmm, and if so, does that really mean it has to be JtR? Sigh, I might be waffling already.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

I believe it may be a false assumption that it was an unprovoked attack by BS on Stride.The reality is that it is equally possible that Stride accosted BS, and that her fall was due to BS warding her off,as has been suggested by others.Schwartz is also claimed to have said he heard raised voices as he hurried away, which might suggest a vocal argument instead of a prolonged attack.If that is the case,it is probable that voicing his anger was all that BS can be accused of.

It might have been, in which case Stride was killed by someone else who comes along after BS leaves, and is attacked a second time in the same location. And, of course, if it's not the case, and BS is JtR, then he was not just pushing her about, but perhaps his attack did not go as smoothly as it had on other occasions. We don't know either way.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Hello Jeff,

Don't you think that Kidney would have been asked for an alibi and if he failed to provide one that could be verified the police would have asked Schwartz to identify him?

c.d.

Hi c.d.,

Yes, I do, I just haven't seen any police reports saying they verified and cleared. Although, in Tom Wescott's write up that the link points to, near the ends, states "...Swanson reports that, ‘The numerous statements made to police were enquired into and the persons (of whom there were many) were required to account for their presence at the time of the murders & every care taken as far as possible to verify the statements.’, and points out that Kidney was one of those "many" suggesting his whereabouts were accounted for.

So, unsurprisingly, it does appear that Kidney was investigated and cleared, though I would be more comfortable if we had more details on that other than him being included in a sweeping claim of checking everyone and as far as they could and verified their statements. It would be nice to plug all the holes in terms of the how they checked out Kidney and what they found (this information may be available, I've just not seen it). The police were not incompetent, and a partner whom she had just left (and not for the first time), would be an obvious person of interest, so I'm left to have to assume they did check him carefully - I would just like to know.

So, given Kidney appears to have been clear, the case for Stride's inclusion is probably stronger than the alternative - random stranger attack but not JtR. I think there's still room for some caution, but unless some other known acquaintance of Stride can be shown to exist, and for whom there would be reason to suspect them, I think it's a choice between "stranger murder by JtR, known to be active that night in relatively close proximity of time and place" or "stranger murder by other person who happened to kill someone relatively close in time and proximity to JtR." Adding in what I see as very similar usages of the knife to commit murder on that night, it's looking to me very much like Stride should be included, others may weigh all of that differently.

- Jeff

[Darryl Kenyon]

IF BS man was her pimp/bully boy she may have found herself with his knife at her throat on several previous (threatening) occasions and assumed this was just one more time she had displeased him; but this time he goes through with it. She is so taken by surprise that she clenches the small bag of treats in her hand and falls to the ground; her only physical reaction is to clench her fist, for her to do anything else it is too late.

Hi The trouble I have is would you go into a darkened passageway with someone who has just assaulted you? And would you kill someone when you have at least one witness seeing you assault the victim seconds before? And if Liz did have a pimp who had roughed her up on several occasions wouldn't Kidney have mentioned this to the police?