For what reason do we include Stride?

[Sam Flynn]

Or he handed her the packet, pretending sympathy after her encounter with BS man, and then struck while she was distracted, examining the gift?

That crossed my mind, too, Caz. But why was she still holding the packet when she was found dead?

[c.d.]

Too true, CD.

I'm still rather sceptical about Schwartz's version of events. According to those who believe BS Man was the killer, not only did Stride keep hold of the cachous during her assault, but she also went into the pitch black of the yard with her assailant. Most of the evidence points towards Stride being killed while her guard was down.

Hello Harry,

My feeling is that those who believe the BS man was her killer conflate Schwartz's version of events with her actual killing. All he saw was a woman being pushed which would correspond with a simple street hassle. If you accept that idea, a lot of the red flags associated with the BS man as her killer disappear.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

Unless he struck just after she’d taken one but before she’d put them away?

Maybe, but I find it likely that she'd let them go as she died, put up a defence and/or struggled for her life.

[c.d.]

What was she doing with the cachous to begin with? Did she perhaps fish them out of her pocket after her assault, in a futile last grasp at normality before she expired? Might she, in a daze, have mistaken the paper packet for a hanky to staunch the blood?

Hello Sam,

I think the real question with the cachous is not how she was able to hold on to them in death. Cadaveric muscle spasm could explain that. The real question to me is how they could have survived her being thrown to the ground, pushing herself up and being dragged back into the yard by the BS man. While it is possible that she simply could have held on to them I think it is very unlikely. I think it much more likely that she didn't have them in her hand at the time of her encounter with the BS man but took them out after he had left in anticipation of hooking up with a client. Which I think she did (Jack).

c.d.

[Harry D]

Hello Sam,

I think the real question with the cachous is not how she was able to hold on to them in death. Cadaveric muscle spasm could explain that. The real question to me is how they could have survived her being thrown to the ground, pushing herself up and being dragged back into the yard by the BS man. While it is possible that she simply could have held on to them I think it is very unlikely. I think it much more likely that she didn't have them in her hand at the time of her encounter with the BS man but took them out after he had left in anticipation of hooking up with a client. Which I think she did (Jack).

c.d.

It could be that Stride's client had gone back into the club for something while she waited outside. BS Man comes along (possibly Kidney?) and starts hassling her. After being seen by Schwartz and Pipeman, he buggers off. Liz's client comes out of the club, consoles her. They go into the yard to seal the deal and the rest is history.

[c.d.]

It could be that Stride's client had gone back into the club for something while she waited outside. BS Man comes along (possibly Kidney?) and starts hassling her. After being seen by Schwartz and Pipeman, he buggers off. Liz's client comes out of the club, consoles her. They go into the yard to seal the deal and the rest is history.

Hello Harry,

I certainly don't see Kidney as the BS man. Unless the police were complete idiots they would have asked Kidney for an alibi. If he could not provide one I think they would have asked Schwartz to take a look at him.

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

I know very little about the methods of prostitutes (honest guv) but I get the impression that these transactions were unlikely to have included any soppy nonsense like kissing. Does the fact that she was using cachous indicate that Liz was expecting a more personal assignation?

Hi HS

Having recently broken up with kidney, Stride was probably hoping BS man was her new man, unfortunately he was the ripper.

[Sam Flynn]

I think the real question with the cachous is not how she was able to hold on to them in death. Cadaveric muscle spasm could explain that.

Agreed about the possibility of cadaveric spasm, although that doesn't always happen. However, I still wonder how she could, or would, have held onto the sweet packet before death, let alone before any spasm kicked in.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Maybe, but I find it likely that she'd let them go as she died, put up a defence and/or struggled for her life.

I agree Gareth, you would think that even with the briefest of struggles she’d have let go of them to use both hands. Could she have tried to defend herself by making a fist with the cashous in that hand?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi HS

Having recently broken up with kidney, Stride was probably hoping BS man was her new man, unfortunately he was the ripper.

Hi Abby,

Certainly a possibility.

[Harry D]

Hello Harry,

I certainly don't see Kidney as the BS man. Unless the police were complete idiots they would have asked Kidney for an alibi. If he could not provide one I think they would have asked Schwartz to take a look at him.

c.d.

Take Kidney out of the equation, then. Is the scenario still workable?

[c.d.]

I agree Gareth, you would think that even with the briefest of struggles she’d have let go of them to use both hands. Could she have tried to defend herself by making a fist with the cashous in that hand?

Hello Herlock,

A fist is best for punching. If she were being dragged into the yard you would expect her palms to be open trying to push her assailant away. I have tried this with friends (not telling them why till afterwords) and they have all attempted to push me away with their palm open.

If her assailant had his hand over her mouth trying to prevent her from crying out, you would expect her to use her fingers with the palm open to try to pry his fingers away.

Both scenarios favor the palm open which would have made it hard to hold on to the cachous.

I have to conclude that she took the cachous out after the BS man left and before she met her killer.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Take Kidney out of the equation, then. Is the scenario still workable?

Hello Harry,

Are you suggesting her killer was a club member? Perhaps you might want to weigh in on my other thread whether the club would cover for him.

And if her killer was a club member can you come up with a motive for him? Jealousy perhaps?

c.d.

[Wickerman]

Or he handed her the packet, pretending sympathy after her encounter with BS man, and then struck while she was distracted, examining the gift?

Various possibilities here.

Love,

Caz
X

One of the possibilities, in my mind, is that this packet of cachous was not in the hand at all. That would solve all these questions about how she could hold onto them.

I would expect the packet to be in the palm of her hand, but apparently this was not the case. Blackwell specified that the packet was lodged between the forefinger & the thumb, but that is not exactly 'in the hand'.
As her left hand was laid on the ground, palm up, then her hand might have fallen right beside this packet of cachous that were on the ground.
As her fingers (and thumb) curled up, the packet was trapped between the forefinger & thumb.

[DJA]

Dr. Blackwell [recalled] (who assisted in making the post-mortem examination) said: I can confirm Dr. Phillips as to the appearances at the mortuary. I may add that I removed the cachous from the left hand of the deceased, which was nearly open. The packet was lodged between the thumb and the first finger, and was partially hidden from view. It was I who spilt them in removing them from the hand. My impression is that the hand gradually relaxed while the woman was dying, she dying in a fainting condition from the loss of blood.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand