For what reason do we include Stride?

[c.d.]

Hello APerno,

Kidney interjected himself into the investigation. But any investigation (i.e, questioning individuals who knew Stride) should have turned up information that Stride previously lived with him but had recently moved out. They also should have found out that Kidney was apparently a heavy drinker and that he had previously been physically abusive to her. Now if that information didn't make him a person of interest then the police would have to have been incredibly stupid and incompetent. If we assume that they were not then it is reasonable to assume that they asked him where he was that night. If he had an alibi, it is reasonable to assume that they confirmed it rather than simply take his word for it. If he had no alibi, it is reasonable to assume that they would have had Schwartz take a look at him. This is all basic police investigation 101. Yes, that is a lot if assumptions but the alternative is to accept that Scotland Yard was the equivalent of the Keystone Cops.

As for them foregoing an investigation of Kidney because they believed this to be a Ripper murder how could the police be assured that Kidney wasn't the Ripper?

c.d.

[Wickerman]

A question for another thread, perhaps. One cut was enough for Eddowes and Stride but they differed in extent.

When I read Dr Brown's description of Eddowes' throat wound he does not suggest how many cuts, just the way the wound looks, which could have been achieved by more than one cut.
But as you say, for another thread.

[APerno]

I've no doubt that they did, but - as I said - I've no wish to make this a Kidney thread.

Why not? It goes to the thread's topic.

Why do you believe CD checked-out Kidney? I have always felt Baxter sent Scotland Yard down a rabbit hole, he virtually opened his inquest with the conclusion that Stride was a JTR victim. I question whether CD put any effort into following non-Ripper leads.

Also regarding Kidney, there are several posters here who have argued that there is no empirical evidence that Stride was an 'unfortunate' -- if so that would mean that both victims, that night, were not soliciting and have been incorrectly labeled (historically speaking) prostitutes. But could the absence of a direct mention in Stride's inquest simply been caused by civic politeness? Eddowes on the other hand seems to have just recently returned to London, after having been game-fully employed (as a migrant).

Anyway with that digression, if Stride is not a 'working girl' her presence in the yard becomes more interesting and enigmatic, which brings us back to Kidney. Can Kidney put Stride in that yard?

I would like to hear your thoughts on Kidney, here or in another thread. (Although I think it fits here, "Why Stride?")

[Sam Flynn]

The thing is though Sam do you think it is plausible that the police never considered him a person of interest?

c.d.

I've no doubt that they did, but - as I said - I've no wish to make this a Kidney thread.

[c.d.]

The thing is though Sam do you think it is plausible that the police never considered him a person of interest?

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

Unless the police were complete idiots they would have asked Kidney for an alibi. If he could not supply one that could be verified, they would have asked Schwartz to take a look at him.

The Kidney story is quite interesting, CD, but I only mentioned him as an example, and wouldn't want to turn this into a Kidney thread.

The interesting bit for me is not so much the "suspectology", but the fact that Stride had spent the night in a pub not far from Devonshire Street, where she and Kidney had lived from 1886 until 1888, and she was killed in that same part of town.

[Abby Normal]

I've always been intrigued by the fact that Liz was killed not far from where she and Michael Kidney had until fairly recently lived, which might suggest that she was known to her killer; whether he was Kidney or someone else (a jealous old flame?) is another matter.

interesting Sam
the event witnessed by Schwartz does have the ring of a domestic to it-the jilted lover killing his ex. Do we have any descriptions of kidney? does he match BS man in any way?

[c.d.]

I've always been intrigued by the fact that Liz was killed not far from where she and Michael Kidney had until fairly recently lived, which might suggest that she was known to her killer; whether he was Kidney or someone else (a jealous old flame?) is another matter.

Hello Sam,

Unless the police were complete idiots they would have asked Kidney for an alibi. If he could not supply one that could be verified, they would have asked Schwartz to take a look at him.

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

Michael, you’ve responded there to a post by Abby.

As for Nichols, isn’t it possible that the resulting wounds were all that the killer intended? Many favour Tabram as a ‘first effort’ ripper killing and that he hadn’t yet reached the full extent of his desires (for want of a better way of expressing it.) If Nichols was actually his first victim might it not be the case that this was simply as far as he went at that time and that he then went further with Chapman (possibly due to a more secluded location.)

HI HS
eventhoughIthink more likely that the ripper was disturbed by someone with Nichols and took off before doing what he intended, you make a very valid point and it could be chalked up to escalation.

[Sam Flynn]

Liz had been known to be aggressive at times, what if she lipped off to someone she shouldn't have?

I've always been intrigued by the fact that Liz was killed not far from where she and Michael Kidney had until fairly recently lived, which might suggest that she was known to her killer; whether he was Kidney or someone else (a jealous old flame?) is another matter.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Michael, you’ve responded there to a post by Abby.

As for Nichols, isn’t it possible that the resulting wounds were all that the killer intended? Many favour Tabram as a ‘first effort’ ripper killing and that he hadn’t yet reached the full extent of his desires (for want of a better way of expressing it.) If Nichols was actually his first victim might it not be the case that this was simply as far as he went at that time and that he then went further with Chapman (possibly due to a more secluded location.)

[Michael W Richards]

Hi sam
but what about nichols? Seems the ripper was disturbed also before starting the mutilation/ organ extraction. And surely nichols is a ripper victim.

Something we agree on Herlock, I believe that there is evidence to suggest that what he likely intended took place less than 2 weeks later, in a place that was exposed, but off the street. As Sam and I have stated, I think the double throat cuts are part of that killers signature, and I would expect to see them in subsequent murders. As far as I can tell, only Kate has them...(did Alice? I cant recall). They were intended to kill swiftly, and I think they were also used to facilitate rapid blood loss so his pm work would be a little less bloody. That killer I would say killed to accomplish his ultimate goals, and as I said, I think Liz's wound reflect a spur of the moment angry act..maybe he never killed again, or before,..this may have been a knee jerk, perhaps drunken, choice.

Liz had been known to be aggressive at times, what if she lipped off to someone she shouldn't have?

[Sam Flynn]

Accepted Sam. But we are still left with two throat cutting prostitute murders within an hour or so of each other and a short distance apart where one of them had a man entering the passage with a horse and cart at around the same time that the killer would have been with the victim. This must at least allow for the possibility of one killer?

Of course it's possible, Herlock. Where I differ from most is that I don't think it's necessarily probable, just because there were two knife murders in one night. We're talking about a very deprived and depraved part of the world - albeit the sparsely-populated Mitre Square and its environs isn't quite the same as the overcrowded St George in the East.

[Herlock Sholmes]

There's almost a full hour's gap, so it's not in the same league as "the b of the bang", which is what we must accept if we are to believe the interruption excuse - sorry - explanation of what happened, or didn't happen, to Stride.

Accepted Sam. But we are still left with two throat cutting prostitute murders within an hour or so of each other and a short distance apart where one of them had a man entering the passage with a horse and cart at around the same time that the killer would have been with the victim. This must at least allow for the possibility of one killer?

[Sam Flynn]

Couldn’t we also question the likelihood of another prostitute having her throat cut so soon after and located at a site that provides a reasonable time frame?

There's almost a full hour's gap, so it's not in the same league as "the b of the bang", which is what we must accept if we are to believe the interruption excuse - sorry - explanation of what happened, or didn't happen, to Stride.