The Cachous

[John G]

The hypothesis that because Schwartz didn't see the flower must have witnessed another incident is obviously lacking strength to it because plenty of witnesses omit lots of stuff and have been right on the money.

But Schwartz doesn't say anything about Stride. That leads me to question his evidence, especially as to whether he paid her any attention whatsoever. And if he didn't, it could easily be case of mistaken identity. In fact, his failure to give any information on the victim, I.e information that could subsequently be verified, makes me generally suspicion of his account.

[John G]

But for example, he could have seen a couple horsing around and she ended up on the ground laughing. And then he got the crap scared out him by the man, and as he's running, the memory is rewritten. Women don't laugh with terrifying men, so she wasn't laughing, she was screaming.

We do it everyday, where our emotional interpretation actually rewrites our perception of events. It's amazing how often we do it. Literally daily.

I don't think that happened, but it's ridiculously possible.

Of course it's also possible that he went to the ID with no hope of identifying the woman he briefly saw, and "Oh crap! That really IS her!"

And people guess correctly at IDs all the time. That was the person in that place, but it was still a total guess.

Also don't put too much stock in the presence of the flower. Once the pin splits the stem it's gone, it just falls to the ground. I've never had one last more than three hours and I wore them as my job. They just aren't meant for that. Originally they were sold to wear until you got home and put it in a bud vase, and you put them in a buttonhole where they also fell out quite a bit. Now of course they are just disposable. I prefer them still attached to a plant. Ever had to clean up after a prom? Which was how I knew for a fact I was getting old that I was considered a good chaperon. It's looks like the ground after a Triple Crown win. God forbid you have allergies.

I mean we aren't talking about a rose with a wood stem you can't get a pin through anyway. It was like a daisy or something. And a daisy might not have even survived long enough to get knocked off in a fight. Which also might have happened. He did see rather more of her on the ground than upright. They're delicate things. And some explode when they start to wilt, so you have a droopy flower, and then you have a center and stem and the petals are five feet away. I had to sell them for awhile so I have a rather adversarial relationship with any kind of blossom. Except lilies. They behave.

Which isn't to say you are wrong, just don't pin it on the flower, pardon the pun.

Hi Errata,

But assuming that the flower was so delicate, doesn't that lead us to further question Schwartz account. In other words, as you suggest, would it have survived getting knocked off during the tussle with BS man, especially when she's thrown to the ground?

[Batman]

The hypothesis that because Schwartz didn't see the flower must have witnessed another incident is obviously lacking strength to it because plenty of witnesses omit lots of stuff and have been right on the money.

[harry]

Flowers,like other items,at nightime,in poor light are difficult to distinguish,even white ones.Schwarts,because he was mostly behind BS,and due to the suddenness of BS actions,had very limited time to observe anything. Stride,according to Brown,was shielded by her companion's body.So in both cases,the fact they didn't mention seeing a flower,is because circumstances were against seeing one,not because the woman they saw wasn't wearing one.

[Wickerman]

I mean we aren't talking about a rose with a wood stem you can't get a pin through anyway. It was like a daisy or something. And a daisy might not have even survived long enough to get knocked off in a fight....

Descriptions vary on what the flower was, my wife knows more about these things than I do, and for October, and a red & white flower, she is inclined to think it was a Dahlia.
White petals were reported found scattered in the yard.



We can only guess, but that is a red & white Dahlia.

[Errata]

Hi Errata,

Of course, we don't know that he was followed; that's just his perception of events. I agree with your earlier post -that he probably took little notice of the woman, although I still think he would have been likely to see something as distinctive as a flower- in which case his identification of Stride in the mortuary must be regarded as suspect. As I've noted, I think it quite possible that he witnessed a simple domestic dispute involving a different couple. However, after he learned of the murder, he assumed that the woman must have been Stride, and the man her killer.

But for example, he could have seen a couple horsing around and she ended up on the ground laughing. And then he got the crap scared out him by the man, and as he's running, the memory is rewritten. Women don't laugh with terrifying men, so she wasn't laughing, she was screaming.

We do it everyday, where our emotional interpretation actually rewrites our perception of events. It's amazing how often we do it. Literally daily.

I don't think that happened, but it's ridiculously possible.

Of course it's also possible that he went to the ID with no hope of identifying the woman he briefly saw, and "Oh crap! That really IS her!"

And people guess correctly at IDs all the time. That was the person in that place, but it was still a total guess.

Also don't put too much stock in the presence of the flower. Once the pin splits the stem it's gone, it just falls to the ground. I've never had one last more than three hours and I wore them as my job. They just aren't meant for that. Originally they were sold to wear until you got home and put it in a bud vase, and you put them in a buttonhole where they also fell out quite a bit. Now of course they are just disposable. I prefer them still attached to a plant. Ever had to clean up after a prom? Which was how I knew for a fact I was getting old that I was considered a good chaperon. It's looks like the ground after a Triple Crown win. God forbid you have allergies.

I mean we aren't talking about a rose with a wood stem you can't get a pin through anyway. It was like a daisy or something. And a daisy might not have even survived long enough to get knocked off in a fight. Which also might have happened. He did see rather more of her on the ground than upright. They're delicate things. And some explode when they start to wilt, so you have a droopy flower, and then you have a center and stem and the petals are five feet away. I had to sell them for awhile so I have a rather adversarial relationship with any kind of blossom. Except lilies. They behave.

Which isn't to say you are wrong, just don't pin it on the flower, pardon the pun.

[Batman]

Again you subscribe his intent as the reason for her perception and behaviour. They need not be related.

Anyway Zodiac is an example of someone who claims to want to rob but murders. Plenty more too. Your not looking at this right at all.

[John G]

John people went to jail for literally pinching bread.

BS man doesn't seem like the sort of man that was starving! Anyway, the woman couldn't possibly have assumed that was intention- they had a conversation, when he must have revealed his intent, and I very much doubt that was, "Stand and deliver. The cachous or your life!"

[Batman]

John people went to jail for literally pinching bread.

[John G]

I think if you want to understand Schwartz's statement, and the likelihood of what he saw, you have to put yourself in his position. How does his surprise alter how he perceives what is happening? How does his fear do that? How does his hasty exit affect what he remembers? Is he describing to the cop what happened to her, or what happened to him? Does he see himself as the victim, or her? Does he likely think those men killed her? Does he feel guilt about that? How does that affect his actions? Would it make him identify a woman he couldn't really remember? And if he doesn't really remember her, does that mean he identified the wrong woman, or could he have identified the right one anyway?

He can get it right even if he does it wrong. And he can get it wrong even when he does it right.

But he's not a witness. He's a man who went through something himself. He also happened to see the victim right before she died, but he didn't know that. Look at his story from the perspective of a man who was attacked by the same men who attacked this young woman. And you feel attacked when you are chased, even if they never lay a hand on you. Look at it from that perspective and see if things make more sense, or less. Does it make sense that a man chased away from a scene in terror said what he did, described it the way he did, had the details that it had and not the details one might expect from eyewitness testimony?

Hi Errata,

Of course, we don't know that he was followed; that's just his perception of events. I agree with your earlier post -that he probably took little notice of the woman, although I still think he would have been likely to see something as distinctive as a flower- in which case his identification of Stride in the mortuary must be regarded as suspect. As I've noted, I think it quite possible that he witnessed a simple domestic dispute involving a different couple. However, after he learned of the murder, he assumed that the woman must have been Stride, and the man her killer.

[John G]

Schwartz saw the man stop and speak to the woman. I think he would have communicated his intentions at that point. And whatever he wanted, it wasn't the cachous. In fact, the obvious solution is that he wanted the woman to come with him, which is why he tried to pull her towards the street.


Just out of interest, can anyone provide any press reports of cachous robberies in London, 1888.

[Errata]

I think if you want to understand Schwartz's statement, and the likelihood of what he saw, you have to put yourself in his position. How does his surprise alter how he perceives what is happening? How does his fear do that? How does his hasty exit affect what he remembers? Is he describing to the cop what happened to her, or what happened to him? Does he see himself as the victim, or her? Does he likely think those men killed her? Does he feel guilt about that? How does that affect his actions? Would it make him identify a woman he couldn't really remember? And if he doesn't really remember her, does that mean he identified the wrong woman, or could he have identified the right one anyway?

He can get it right even if he does it wrong. And he can get it wrong even when he does it right.

But he's not a witness. He's a man who went through something himself. He also happened to see the victim right before she died, but he didn't know that. Look at his story from the perspective of a man who was attacked by the same men who attacked this young woman. And you feel attacked when you are chased, even if they never lay a hand on you. Look at it from that perspective and see if things make more sense, or less. Does it make sense that a man chased away from a scene in terror said what he did, described it the way he did, had the details that it had and not the details one might expect from eyewitness testimony?

[Batman]

Here is something to consider.

If one did not believe that she was offering up valuables in what she thought was a robbery then she might have something more of value on her, thereby indicating she wouldn't have gone for the cachous, yet, if you look at the inquest inventory of her belongings she just had string on a card, a thimble and two handkerchiefs. The sweets are the obvious choice. It doesn't prove she thought she was being robbed, but the cachous were really all she had to give should she have to give something. The other possibility is that they stole her gold and banknotes, but that's hardly likely.

[John G]

As I noted in my earlier post, ""Lipski" might have been a warning to Schwartz not to interfere in a purely domestic dispute.

[Batman]

No one heard them shout Lipski though.