The Cachous

[lynn cates]

pocket

Hello Harry.

In my view, that's nearly correct. I think she had just RETRIEVED the cachous from her pocket.

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

Words

Hello Lynn,

You are quite right. I should choose my words more carefully. I have always gone with the idea that the killer only choked his victims into insensibility before cutting their throats.

I wonder whether the 15 minutes between Schwarz and Diemschutz could have been taken up with waiting for the coast to be clear. By all accounts there were a good many people coming and going, and Jack may have expected to find the club empty after the lecture, not people having a late night singsong? Hanging about in the shadows waiting for an opportunity to finish I mean and then finally giving up when Diemschutz arrived.

Best wishes,
Gwyneth

[John G]

Hello John. Thanks.

OK, but what rules out:

1. a meeting at the side door?

or

2. a bloke hiding in the yard?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Essentially nothing. However, I regard those options as far less likely scenarios. Thus, why would someone be hiding in the Yard? I mean, it seems implausible to me that someone would be hiding in the Yard, spider-like, hoping that a victim would fall into his web.

Meeting at the side door is a far more plausible but this creates other problems. For instance, if the person planned to kill Stride surely there were better locations, and better nights, to arrange an ambush. Moreover, the killer would be taking an enormous risk that his absence from the club would be noticed, particularly if someone remembers it was around the time that Stride was probably killed.

If murder was not the intent, it's difficult to imagine a scenario in which there wouldn't have been some sort of argument, or at least heated discussion, that proceeded the assault. And, if that was the case, why did nobody hear anything, particularly Mrs D? And, of course, the other difficulty is that it would surely be probable that someone would have noticed this person's absence and subsequent return to the club.

Regarding the cachous, it does seem to indicate that Stride was relatively relaxed: would that have been the case if she was expecting to be involved in an argument with someone, I.e because she'd decided to break off a relationship? And, if she wasn't expecting trouble, and the murder wasn't planned, what could possibly have happened, in such a short period of time, to make the man want to kill her?

[harry]

What if,at the moment the killer struck,Stride had her hands in her pockets?Would that make a difference?

[lynn cates]

alternatives

Hello John. Thanks.

OK, but what rules out:

1. a meeting at the side door?

or

2. a bloke hiding in the yard?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

detective work

Hello Trevor. Thanks.

Well, you're the detective. Are my directions correct?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

tight

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

OK, if you mean pulling the scarf tight for two seconds, very well.

But that's not quite what I mean by strangulation.

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Hello (again) Errata. Thanks.

Your ideas have nothing to disallow. However, like you, I am not happy with Liz being in the yard with her back to her slayer. If he precedes her, walks west, her following, he stops and turns east to chat, I have no problem. Also, if she decides to have a cachou whilst talking--no problem. But I find it odd that, at this point, she pivots 180 to retrieve one.

I think you see what I mean.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

That's why I think, whatever the scenario, that Stride must have changed her mind. In other words, she enters the passage with the man, reasonably relaxed. However, something doesn't feel right to her. Maybe it's something he says or does. In any event, she changes her mind, turns round and heads for the exit. Her killer responds, perhaps after being caught off guard initially, follows behind, eventually pulling her to the ground and slitting her throat.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hello (again) Errata. Thanks.

Your ideas have nothing to disallow. However, like you, I am not happy with Liz being in the yard with her back to her slayer. If he precedes her, walks west, her following, he stops and turns east to chat, I have no problem. Also, if she decides to have a cachou whilst talking--no problem. But I find it odd that, at this point, she pivots 180 to retrieve one.

I think you see what I mean.

Cheers.
LC

By the sound of your directions could he have had a sat nav

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[curious4]

Numbness

Hello Lynn, Errata and John,

Beg forgiveness for my less than clear posts, an addiction to Facebook has pained my sense....

Anyway, I contend that there IS evidence of strangulation. The clenched hand and the fact that the scarf was frayed by the cut to the throat - the scarf must have been tautv for this to happen. Also that Liz must have been silenced quickly. Had she been conscious, she would have screamed and struggled at the sight of a knife approaching her throat.


My favourite source: lifeloom.com/II4Aggrawal.htm, for choking/throttling info says this: "When a victim is attacked from the back without warning, and strangled by grasping his throat or throwing a ligature over the neck and tightening it quickly, it is as garrotting. It can overpower and kill even a healthy robust male without any struggle. Loss of consciousness is so rapid that the assailant is able to single-handedly tie the ligature with one or more turns.

In Scotland Yard Investigates, there is a slightly different version of Schwartz' statement. He grasps her with one hand on her shoulder. This leaves one hand free to twist the scarf, but (unless he is a three handed killer) no hand free for the knife. Did his companion, provided he was his companion, provide the knife? Or even do the cutting? An unconscious Liz would be easy to position.


John, I don't think we should worry too much about the word used to descrbethe ground. What is important is that she was lowered to the ground.



Best wishes,
C4

Phone seems to be on delayed action - this has been a b****r to write!

[lynn cates]

pivot

Hello (again) Errata. Thanks.

Your ideas have nothing to disallow. However, like you, I am not happy with Liz being in the yard with her back to her slayer. If he precedes her, walks west, her following, he stops and turns east to chat, I have no problem. Also, if she decides to have a cachou whilst talking--no problem. But I find it odd that, at this point, she pivots 180 to retrieve one.

I think you see what I mean.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

laid to rest

Hello Errata.

"I confess I may be missing something, but what makes you so sure she was throttled? There's no bruising, no rope burn, no signs of strangulation, no injuries to her throat indicating an attempt to loosen to hold... I'm looking at the medical evidence and I'm not seeing it.

Not that it wouldn't make perfect sense that the scarf might have cut off her air flow for a second or two, but I don't see anything to make me think that there was any serious injury even attempted in that way."

Quite so. Wish we could lay all this to rest once and for all.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

question

Hello Abby.

"Why didn't the police at the time rule out BS man due to the Cachous?"

Well, perhaps the lads at Leman DID. And at inquest, I believe this packet prompted Baxter's question.

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Hi John.

Two questions; where does her liaison with the parcel-man at 12:35 seen by PC Smith, come into play?
And, as you appear to accept Schwartz being there, then do you also accept the part where Schwartz says he followed BS-man walking down Berner St. towards Dutfields Yard?
That part reads like BS-man came upon Stride standing in the gateway rather than him already being in her company.

Hello Jon,

PC Smith is clearly an issue, so I'll therefore modify the scenario. Firstly, the parcel that PC Smith saw needn't have been anything sinister. After all, Goldstein's black bag turned out be completely innocuous.

Okay. I will hypothesis that BS man intends to kill Stride but not in that locality- because he lives close by and he decides that would be too risky. He's been trying, therefore, to persuade her to go with him to another pre-planned location. However, possibly because this is some distance away Stride has been reluctant to agree.

Unfortunately for him things have dragged on so long that he now has an errand to complete-the parcel relates to the errand. He asks Stride to wait for him by the club gates whilst he drops off the parcel: The person he needs to give the parcel to is known to him and may even be a family member; he is therefore reluctant to allow this person to see Stride in his company.

What Schwartz subsequently witnesses is the man returning to Stride. He now decides things have dragged on far too long and he's rapidly losing patience: He makes one final attempt to persuade Stride to go with him. When she still refuses, he gets frustrated and tries to pull her into the street, as witnessed by Schwartz, by way of further encouragement. However, as noted in the earlier post, she pulls back, loses her balance, spins round, and falls to the ground (Schwartz, unaware of the context, wrongly interprets this as Stride being thrown to the ground.)

He now decides that she is unlikely to be persuaded to go with him to the location so he has to improvise. He therefore tricks her into going with him into Dutfield's Yard as described in my earlier post.

[Wickerman]

Okay, here's a BS man scenario. Let us assume that BS man was also Marshall's suspect. He's been trying to persuade Stride to come with him to a pre-planned location for some time but she refuses. Perhaps he looses patience, they have an argument and Stride walks away, stopping by the gates of the club- after all, if she felt threatened she could have been attracted by the music and singing and, to that extent, the public nature of the club would represent a possible place of refuge.

Hi John.

Two questions; where does her liaison with the parcel-man at 12:35 seen by PC Smith, come into play?
And, as you appear to accept Schwartz being there, then do you also accept the part where Schwartz says he followed BS-man walking down Berner St. towards Dutfields Yard?
That part reads like BS-man came upon Stride standing in the gateway rather than him already being in her company.