The Cachous

[DJA]

With respect to the cachous, I thought where they were found offered a clue.

They were in the left hand, and the left hand was on the ground.
Because she was laid on her left side, that means her left hand was in contact with the ground, but it her hand was palm up.

The cachous were not in the palm of her hand, but caught between her forefinger and the thumb.
She may not have been holding the cachous at all.

If the packet of cachous was already on the ground, and as she fell her left hand fell beside the packet, then as her fingers slowly curled up, her forefinger & thumb trapped the paper packet between them.

Stride was lying on her left side with the left arm extended from the elbow.

More likely she was attempting a cricketing catch as her final act.

[c.d.]

I haven't read through the thread so apologies if this has been brought up, but isn't clenched hands a sign of strangulation? If the ripper struck quickly and silently from behind maybe pulling her scarf tight inducing unconsciousness due to lack of blood flow, then lowering Liz towards the ground before cutting her throat. Maybe that explains the Cachous?

Hello Darryl,

The question is how did the cachous survive her being thrown to the ground as Schwartz described and her most likely being pulled into the passageway? This is a separate issue from her death.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

With respect to the cachous, I thought where they were found offered a clue.

They were in the left hand, and the left hand was on the ground.
Because she was laid on her left side, that means her left hand was in contact with the ground, but it her hand was palm up.

The cachous were not in the palm of her hand, but caught between her forefinger and the thumb.
She may not have been holding the cachous at all.

If the packet of cachous was already on the ground, and as she fell her left hand fell beside the packet, then as her fingers slowly curled up, her forefinger & thumb trapped the paper packet between them.

[Darryl Kenyon]

I haven't read through the thread so apologies if this has been brought up, but isn't clenched hands a sign of strangulation? If the ripper struck quickly and silently from behind maybe pulling her scarf tight inducing unconsciousness due to lack of blood flow, then lowering Liz towards the ground before cutting her throat. Maybe that explains the Cachous?

[c.d.]

As far as the cachous goes, it is certainly possible that she somehow managed to hold on to them the entire time. Such things are possible. I just don't think that that is the norm. This argument is easy to test and I have done it myself. Simply ask your friends (without explanation) to throw themselves on your bed or couch. Observe the position of their hands as they fall and as they attempt to get up. Then try to pull them while they are standing and ask them to resist. Again, observe the position of their hand and see if their palm is open as they try to resist.

I recall when the cachous thread was very active. I fell off my bike during that time and landed on my hands before I had time to react. The scuff marks on the gloves I was wearing at the time reflected that.

In conclusion, the best we can do is to say which we think is the most likely scenario.

I should mention that your friends will most likely think you rather strange and simply asking women to throw themselves on your bed is a bit more problematic.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello Wick,

It could be that the killer was poor and that even a small amount of money was significant to him. It could also be that a prostitute having anything of his was an effront to him. Or perhaps a combination of the two.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

I tend to feel that the fact no victims were found with any money on them must play into the killers MO somehow.
Clients were expected to pay up front, so why no money on their bodies?
Which begs the question, was he a client, or did he just attack them?

[c.d.]

My problem with the robbery ruse is that it seems to be unnecessary as the victims would have been quite willing to go off to a secluded location with a stranger and exchange sex for money.

The main problem I have with it though is that while posing as a customer if anything doesn't seem right about the situation he could simply bail with no repercussions other than perhaps a cussing out from the woman. If he had to bail while employing the robbery ruse he has now committed a crime and can be identified by the woman. That is something he would not want.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello Garza,

When I say she was thrown down I am not talking about her death but about her being thrown to the ground by the B.S. man according to Schwartz. Her being thrown down is unrelated to how she was found in death.

I don't doubt Schwartz's testimony since Stride was still alive when he left the scene according to him. I do take into account that he came into the situation while it was in progress and couldn't understand what was being said.

I believe Schwartz but I don't think Stride's killer was the B.S. man.

c.d.

[Varqm]

Tom Wescott did an article about it. I was skeptical at first, but while not definite it is a possibility. The clue is the objects thrown about the ground in some of the murders, not of the women's pockets were ripped - how did they fall out? It might be different if the killer laid them out in a pattern, but there seems to be no pattern at all.

So announce a robbery or threaten,during the robbery,while the victims were still alive, the ripper put his hands or hand if holding the knife (or asked her),in the pockets and throw out the things,position her and kill? Or kill her as soon as possible and after she died he went for souvenirs.

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[Garza]

But keep in mind that it is not just the attack. The cachous (which were only wrapped in tissue) had to survive Liz being thrown to the ground. The natural response is to spread your hands when you hit the ground to help break your fall. They also had to withstand her getting to her feet. Again the natural response is to spread your hands and put your weight on them pushing yourself up. If she was dragged into the passage again the natural response would be to try to push your attacker away with palm outstretched in which case the cachous would most likely have fallen to the ground.

Yes, some people do freeze and might have been the case here but that to me seems quite unlikely given all that the cachous had to withstand. I think the logical conclusion is that she took them out after the B.S. man had left.

c.d.

How do we know she was thrown down though? Witnesses to the dead Liz Stride state she looked like she was "placed" there. There was no dirt or firm on her dress, except on the side she lay on. You are right. When a person is thrown, they usually aim to land on their bum or/and they move their hands to break the fall. There was no dirt, grim and scratches on Stride's hands. Another reason why I am so skeptical of Schwartz's testimony.

It could be that he put a knife to the throat and say get down on the ground and she complied.

It could be he told her to that, and she still froze not moving and realising she was frozen her pushed her downwards (not with violence) by putting hands on her shoulders (the marks on her shoulder area) and pushing down - she complied and he cut her throat.

[Garza]

What are the clues? I think it was simpler to put the victim in some "arranged" position - killer behind the back, and he went for the kill immediately.Announcing a robbery might cause a scream,it was a robber after all not a killer.

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Tom Wescott did an article about it. I was skeptical at first, but while not definite it is a possibility. The clue is the objects thrown about the ground in some of the murders, not of the women's pockets were ripped - how did they fall out? It might be different if the killer laid them out in a pattern, but there seems to be no pattern at all.

[c.d.]

It seems to me to be the most simplest explanation. Some people fight, some people flee, some people freeze.

But keep in mind that it is not just the attack. The cachous (which were only wrapped in tissue) had to survive Liz being thrown to the ground. The natural response is to spread your hands when you hit the ground to help break your fall. They also had to withstand her getting to her feet. Again the natural response is to spread your hands and put your weight on them pushing yourself up. If she was dragged into the passage again the natural response would be to try to push your attacker away with palm outstretched in which case the cachous would most likely have fallen to the ground.

Yes, some people do freeze and might have been the case here but that to me seems quite unlikely given all that the cachous had to withstand. I think the logical conclusion is that she took them out after the B.S. man had left.

c.d.

[Varqm]

There is some clues that its possible Jack the Ripper used a robbery ruse before he struck. Maybe this happened quite regularly to prostitutes in the East End and it was an easy way to keep their hands busy while he struck.



Haha I agree its not a prerequisite. The cachous I believe were not to freshen the breath, but to overpower the taste sensors while performing the said act. In the working class East End, I am sure hygiene was not as good as it is now. And I'm sure prostitutes there and then had to deal with very unclean male genitalia with the disgusting odours and tastes that come with that. Some street prostitutes today use chewing gum for the same effect.

What are the clues? I think it was simpler to put the victim in some "arranged" position - killer behind the back, and he went for the kill immediately.Announcing a robbery might cause a scream,it was a robber after all not a killer.

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[Garza]

Hi HS and Garza
those dam cashews!!!

But I agree with you both-for whatever reason she simply held on to them during the attack.

It seems to me to be the most simplest explanation. Some people fight, some people flee, some people freeze.