The Cachous

[Abby Normal]

I agree that a woman being "attacked" in quick succession by two different assailants is quite unlikely. But what if she was not really "attacked" but simply pushed to the ground by some drunk man on his way home from the pub and not in a good mood? Then everything changes.

And let's keep in mind that Stride was not standing in a crowd on a Sunday afternoon in front of a church. She was a single woman out standing on a lonely street right at a time when many drunk men were out and about. Is it so unlikely that she simply said something that a drunk man took offense at and that he gave her a shove and called her a bitch as he left the scene?

That scenario (which Swanson allowed for in his report) eliminates a number of problems with the B.S. man as her killer:

1. It eliminates the cachous problem if she took them out after he left and no longer felt threatened.

2. It explains why the B.S. man would go on to kill Stride after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man. The answer is he didn't.

3. It explains why Stride's clothes were not torn or ripped. She was not dragged into the passageway by the B.S. man.

4. It explains (to a certain extent) Stride's "small screams" in that she really didn't feel threatened by the B.S. man.

5. It explains why no one in the club heard any sounds after Schwartz left the scene. They testified that they would have heard anything through the open window despite the singing in the club. There was no argument or struggle since the B.S. man had left.

So try not to get hung up on words like "attacked" or "assaulted" as they are heavily loaded. And remember that Schwartz did not see Stride being killed only pushed. She was alive when he left.

Try to see it as a simple street dust up which was most likely quite common at the time and everything changes.

c.d.

Hi cd
I think bs man, aka peaked cap man was the man seen by the other witnesses. He had spent considerable time and possibly money on liz trying to finagle her into a secluded place with no avail. He loses patience leaves her loses his temper shortly after returns to her(this is where schwartz comes in) and assaults her. During the struggle he pulls her scarf tight cuts her throat and knowing he wont have time to do his thing takes off. Stride with her throat cut makes her way towards the men singing and help but expires in the yard.

She had the cashoo in her hand during the wandering about period with him(maybe he had bought them for her and the flower also) and just simply held on to them during the attack.

This is the simplest and most reasonable and explains all the little sub mysteries to my mind.

[c.d.]

"and added to this that today we know that people can go through incredibly violent trauma (like a car accident and yes murder) and still be found clutching something in their hand."

Hello Abby,

I agree. There are instances of this happening but is it the norm or is it an anomaly?

c.d.

[Wickerman]

It's easy to judge the treatment of a woman by today's standards, based on that I would agree it is difficult to accept a woman today being assaulted twice in 15 minutes.

This is the late 19th century, this was the East End, and this was a prostitute.
I think those factors play a role in how such a woman out at night might be treated.

[c.d.]

"to rule out this man based on the fact that she was found murdered clutching something in her hand is silly IMHO."

Hello Abby,

I have never claimed that nor do I know anybody who has. It is simply a clue and a very strong one in my opinion. It is simply one of the many problems with the B.S. man as her killer.

[c.d.]

I agree that a woman being "attacked" in quick succession by two different assailants is quite unlikely. But what if she was not really "attacked" but simply pushed to the ground by some drunk man on his way home from the pub and not in a good mood? Then everything changes.

And let's keep in mind that Stride was not standing in a crowd on a Sunday afternoon in front of a church. She was a single woman out standing on a lonely street right at a time when many drunk men were out and about. Is it so unlikely that she simply said something that a drunk man took offense at and that he gave her a shove and called her a bitch as he left the scene?

That scenario (which Swanson allowed for in his report) eliminates a number of problems with the B.S. man as her killer:

1. It eliminates the cachous problem if she took them out after he left and no longer felt threatened.

2. It explains why the B.S. man would go on to kill Stride after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man. The answer is he didn't.

3. It explains why Stride's clothes were not torn or ripped. She was not dragged into the passageway by the B.S. man.

4. It explains (to a certain extent) Stride's "small screams" in that she really didn't feel threatened by the B.S. man.

5. It explains why no one in the club heard any sounds after Schwartz left the scene. They testified that they would have heard anything through the open window despite the singing in the club. There was no argument or struggle since the B.S. man had left.

So try not to get hung up on words like "attacked" or "assaulted" as they are heavily loaded. And remember that Schwartz did not see Stride being killed only pushed. She was alive when he left.

Try to see it as a simple street dust up which was most likely quite common at the time and everything changes.

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

I tend to believe him as well. I have more of a problem with excluding BS Man because, for him not to be the killer, an assumption has to be made that the same woman was attacked twice in quick succession by two different assailants - which seems unlikely.

yup-add that to my list above too

[Bridewell]

Hello Garza,

When I say she was thrown down I am not talking about her death but about her being thrown to the ground by the B.S. man according to Schwartz. Her being thrown down is unrelated to how she was found in death.

I don't doubt Schwartz's testimony since Stride was still alive when he left the scene according to him. I do take into account that he came into the situation while it was in progress and couldn't understand what was being said.

I believe Schwartz but I don't think Stride's killer was the B.S. man.

c.d.

I tend to believe him as well. I have more of a problem with excluding BS Man because, for him not to be the killer, an assumption has to be made that the same woman was attacked twice in quick succession by two different assailants - which seems unlikely.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Darryl,

If you don't believe that the B.S. man was her killer then we are in agreement.

c.d.

Hi CD and DK
we have a woman who was found murdered shortly after being seen by a witness being attacked by a man. A man who fits several witness descriptions of being in Strides company and later with a second murder victim.

A man wearing a peaked cap.

I think its safe to say this man killed stride and probably eddowes too.

to rule out this man based on the fact that she was found murdered clutching something in her hand is silly IMHO.


and added to this that today we know that people can go through incredibly violent trauma (like a car accident and yes murder) and still be found clutching something in their hand.


the cashoo is a red herring.

[DJA]

Hi Dave. Clay pipes and tobacco and a cigarette case (I think) make appearances throughout the casebook. Considering cachous were generally advertised as remedies for smokers breath, he might have offered the cachous to these women (as enticement) if he has intentions of kissing them. Was the paper unmarked, may have been his cachous...

Famously so by Leonetto Cappiello's poster in 1900. There's that flippin' time machine again

Was Liz a smoker?

Have no doubt the cachous were a gift from Henry ..... oops,Jack the Ripper.
Used to put her at ease

[DJA]

Michael,
You are using a 21st century dictionary for a licorice product that was first manufactured in France in 1890.
If she had taken one of those,it would be obvious by the color of her mouth.
Very strong implication that taking possession of those cachous was the very last thing she did.

So Stride was wearing "her good evening wear".
Where did you get that from

[Michael W Richards]

Cachous were originally a treatment for hereditary hemorrhagic telangietcasia,which is exactly what Stride's bottom lip looks like.

In the Oxford dictionary Cachous are "A pleasant-smelling lozenge sucked to mask bad breath". I don't know where the above comes from, but the usage of the word in almost every source is a "pastille" or "lozenge" to sweeten the breath. Which is how myself, and it would seem most others, interpret it.

Again, she is wearing "her good evening wear", she has breath fresheners and a newly purchased flower arrangement on her jacket, and she is wearing a long skirt. And she is standing around near a club that had a large meeting that had ended, full of Jews...even some perhaps that she had been getting cleaning work from.

Strides lip, her missing teeth, her teenage pregnancy and her lies about the boat tragedy have little if anything to do with the circumstances that night. What she is doing, who is nearby, and why she is there certainly are relevant.

Her demeanor suggests some reasonable answers.

[DJA]

[QUOTE=c.d.;455226]"Cachous were originally a treatment for hereditary hemorrhagic telangietcasia,which is exactly what Stride's bottom lip looks like."

So are you saying that at one time they contained medication? I thought they were just candy breath mints.

Hi c.d.

Ancient medicine from India that became licorice flavored.
It's name comes from catechu,the wood of the Senegalia catechu tree which is an acacia.
It was quite new in London at the time of Stride's murder.
She would have used it as an astringent for her bottom lip.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catechu

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hereditary_hemorrhagic_telangiectasia

[Robert St Devil]

Hi Dave. Clay pipes and tobacco and a cigarette case (I think) make appearances throughout the casebook. Considering cachous were generally advertised as remedies for smokers breath, he might have offered the cachous to these women (as enticement) if he has intentions of kissing them. Was the paper unmarked, may have been his cachous...

[c.d.]

"Cachous were originally a treatment for hereditary hemorrhagic telangietcasia,which is exactly what Stride's bottom lip looks like."

So are you saying that at one time they contained medication? I thought they were just candy breath mints.

c.d.

[c.d.]

For what it is worth c.d. I don't believe B.S man killed Liz. In all honesty, I think it is a possibility that Liz never saw her killer. That he came up behind her [already in the passageway], pulled her back and killed her quickly and silently.
Sorry, but I thought I said this in my previous post 515. Perhaps I should have said [in that post], that the killer was very unlikely to have been BS man

Hello Darryl,

If you don't believe that the B.S. man was her killer then we are in agreement.

c.d.