The Cachous

[DJA]

I follow your point Darryl. I think the condition of her heart is more indicative of strangulation; but that truly is for another thread. You suggest that strangulation may have caused Liz to seize onto the cachous. But, I'd think this condition would have been present in both of her hands. I (kind of) gather, based on the blood on the back of her right hand and wrist, that she may have reached for her throat after it was cut. Which would question why one hand seized up and the other hand didn't. I'm not entirely opposed to the idea that Jack the Ripper may have placed the cachous in Liz Stride's left hand, considering he had moved Annie Chapman's left hand when he removed her rings one murder prior and he was known to move objects about the scene. If the cachous were in her hand by mere coincidence, then who rightly knows since no one knows the activity that transpired during the murder ie maybe he restrained her hand or sat on top of her.

Try this out ..... wrap some Tic Tacs or similar in a tissue and offer it with the palm of your hand.

Bet your lady picks it up with thumb and forefinger.

Cachous were originally a treatment for hereditary hemorrhagic telangietcasia,which is exactly what Stride's bottom lip looks like.

The retention of the tissue is a shock reaction that,like many other things,has been discussed before.

Reckon Jack the Ripper knew of Stride's condition and the appropriate medication.

Bit like the attempt at taking Chapman's head off.
Crikey,she just happened to have TB of the lungs and brain.
Amazing coincidences.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael,

It seems you too are having spelling issues. It is cachous. Hope that helps.

c.d.

I have issues with that spelling all the time, thanks.

As for the possibility that Liz was also choked or strangled, just look at the scarf evidence and the comments concerning it. She was.

[Robert St Devil]

Hi, C.d Sorry if I am missing something but my post - [ I haven't read through the thread so apologies if this has been brought up, but isn't clenched hands a sign of strangulation? If the ripper struck quickly and silently from behind maybe pulling her scarf tight inducing unconsciousness due to lack of blood flow, then lowering Liz towards the ground before cutting her throat. Maybe that explains the Cachous? ], was an attempt to perhaps explain how the cachous were in Liz's hand.
It is highly unlikely they would have survived staying in her hand [unless he put them there after death], after BS man throwing Liz to the ground and then dragging her into the passageway. So i don't think he killed her, certainly not in that instant. Sorry if i didn't make myself clear.

I follow your point Darryl. I think the condition of her heart is more indicative of strangulation; but that truly is for another thread. You suggest that strangulation may have caused Liz to seize onto the cachous. But, I'd think this condition would have been present in both of her hands. I (kind of) gather, based on the blood on the back of her right hand and wrist, that she may have reached for her throat after it was cut. Which would question why one hand seized up and the other hand didn't. I'm not entirely opposed to the idea that Jack the Ripper may have placed the cachous in Liz Stride's left hand, considering he had moved Annie Chapman's left hand when he removed her rings one murder prior and he was known to move objects about the scene. If the cachous were in her hand by mere coincidence, then who rightly knows since no one knows the activity that transpired during the murder ie maybe he restrained her hand or sat on top of her.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Hello Darryl,

I think you are having trouble because you are conflating Stride's death with what Schwartz said he saw which was only Stride being thrown to the ground. I think you are under the impression that the B.S. man killed her after Schwartz left. If the cachous were unlikely to withstand her treatment at the hands of the B.S. man, to me it is reasonable that she only took them out after he had left meaning that he was not her killer.

c.d.

For what it is worth c.d. I don't believe B.S man killed Liz. In all honesty, I think it is a possibility that Liz never saw her killer. That he came up behind her [already in the passageway], pulled her back and killed her quickly and silently.
Sorry, but I thought I said this in my previous post 515. Perhaps I should have said [in that post], that the killer was very unlikely to have been BS man

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

It seems you too are having spelling issues. It is cachous. Hope that helps.

c.d.

[c.d.]

BS man undoubtedly was Strides killer. Maybe he placed them in her hand to confuse armchair detectives 150 years later.

cashoo is biggest red herring in ripperology.

Hello Abby,

Undoubtedly? Ah c'mon, you know better than to make a statement like that.

I really do wish you would try the throw yourself on the bed thing with your friends and then we would have concrete examples (one way or another) and not have to rely on theory.

c.d.

P.S. And for the record it is cachous not cashoo.

[c.d.]

Hi, C.d Sorry if I am missing something but my post - [ I haven't read through the thread so apologies if this has been brought up, but isn't clenched hands a sign of strangulation? If the ripper struck quickly and silently from behind maybe pulling her scarf tight inducing unconsciousness due to lack of blood flow, then lowering Liz towards the ground before cutting her throat. Maybe that explains the Cachous? ], was an attempt to perhaps explain how the cachous were in Liz's hand.
It is highly unlikely they would have survived staying in her hand [unless he put them there after death], after BS man throwing Liz to the ground and then dragging her into the passageway. So i don't think he killed her, certainly not in that instant. Sorry if i didn't make myself clear.

Hello Darryl,

I think you are having trouble because you are conflating Stride's death with what Schwartz said he saw which was only Stride being thrown to the ground. I think you are under the impression that the B.S. man killed her after Schwartz left. If the cachous were unlikely to withstand her treatment at the hands of the B.S. man, to me it is reasonable that she only took them out after he had left meaning that he was not her killer.

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

BS man undoubtedly was Strides killer. Maybe he placed them in her hand to confuse armchair detectives 150 years later.

cashoo is biggest red herring in ripperology.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Hello Darryl,

The question is how did the cachous survive her being thrown to the ground as Schwartz described and her most likely being pulled into the passageway? This is a separate issue from her death.

c.d.

Hi, C.d Sorry if I am missing something but my post - [ I haven't read through the thread so apologies if this has been brought up, but isn't clenched hands a sign of strangulation? If the ripper struck quickly and silently from behind maybe pulling her scarf tight inducing unconsciousness due to lack of blood flow, then lowering Liz towards the ground before cutting her throat. Maybe that explains the Cachous? ], was an attempt to perhaps explain how the cachous were in Liz's hand.
It is highly unlikely they would have survived staying in her hand [unless he put them there after death], after BS man throwing Liz to the ground and then dragging her into the passageway. So i don't think he killed her, certainly not in that instant. Sorry if i didn't make myself clear.

[Michael W Richards]

Or perhaps the cachous were given to Stride by Jack as a treatment for her bottom lip.
The moment she takes them in her fingers,he strikes .....
BS man,her bodyguard, had already left after an argument about payment.
The trick is to consider all the evidence

I agree. The evidence in this case is that a woman who has current employment "among the jews" is just outside a jewish mens club after a large meeting has ended and the majority of the attendees have left. She is wearing what is described as "her good evening wear" by a lodgemate, and she has a flower arrangement on her jacket and some cashous to freshen her breath in her hand. She requested a lint brush to use before she went out that night. She was paid 6d. She is recently separated from her boyfriend, that same week. She did not know when she would return to the lodginghouse, and gave some fabric to a lodgemate to watch for her in her absence.

So, as you see, speculation that she might have been dressed and had cashous for either a date or a work appointment is entirely in keeping with the evidence.

Since there is no mention of Israel, his story, or the implications of his story at the Inquest, there is no need to continue to imagine any BS man or the encounter as being relevant. The fact that Fanny Mortimer is at her door continuously from 12:50 until 1 am should address the factual relevance of the stories told by Israel and Louis. And Morris, as a result.

Evidence is good, more people should use it.

[DJA]

Or perhaps the cachous were given to Stride by Jack as a treatment for her bottom lip.
The moment she takes them in her fingers,he strikes .....
BS man,her bodyguard, had already left after an argument about payment.
The trick is to consider all the evidence

[Michael W Richards]

With respect to the cachous, I thought where they were found offered a clue.

They were in the left hand, and the left hand was on the ground.
Because she was laid on her left side, that means her left hand was in contact with the ground, but it her hand was palm up.

The cachous were not in the palm of her hand, but caught between her forefinger and the thumb.
She may not have been holding the cachous at all.

If the packet of cachous was already on the ground, and as she fell her left hand fell beside the packet, then as her fingers slowly curled up, her forefinger & thumb trapped the paper packet between them.

In addition to the cashous we have circumstantial evidence provided by witnesses which indicate that Liz A) didn't leave the boarding house with the flower arrangement, but did request to use a lint brush to tidy herself, and B) she likely earned enough that day to buy both the maidenfern and the cashous. It is also said she wore "her best evening dress", which was down to her boot-tops.

The cashous fit very well into that picture, someone who has done some preening for a particular moment or event that hasn't transpired yet. For me that would be either hired to clean the hall, or waiting for a man. And both of those possibilities make sense with the state of the club at that time. The last 30 or so still upstairs, and Mrs D likely starting the cleaning of the dishes in the kitchen,..the door slightly ajar due to the heat created when she heated some water.

[DJA]

Dr Phillips at the Inquest....
The body was lying on its left side, the face being turned towards the wall, the head towards the yard, and the feet toward the street. The left arm was extended from elbow, and a packet of cachous was in the hand.

[Wickerman]

And the pkt of cachous was lodged between her thumb & forefinger. So not actually in her hand, but possibly on the ground.

[Fisherman]

Stride was lying on her left side with the left arm extended from the elbow.

More likely she was attempting a cricketing catch as her final act.

Actually, she was lying ON her left arm, the upper part of it. The arm was angled and protruded from the body.