The Cachous

[Abby Normal]

BS man undoubtedly was Strides killer. Maybe he placed them in her hand to confuse armchair detectives 150 years later.

cashoo is biggest red herring in ripperology.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Hello Darryl,

The question is how did the cachous survive her being thrown to the ground as Schwartz described and her most likely being pulled into the passageway? This is a separate issue from her death.

c.d.

Hi, C.d Sorry if I am missing something but my post - [ I haven't read through the thread so apologies if this has been brought up, but isn't clenched hands a sign of strangulation? If the ripper struck quickly and silently from behind maybe pulling her scarf tight inducing unconsciousness due to lack of blood flow, then lowering Liz towards the ground before cutting her throat. Maybe that explains the Cachous? ], was an attempt to perhaps explain how the cachous were in Liz's hand.
It is highly unlikely they would have survived staying in her hand [unless he put them there after death], after BS man throwing Liz to the ground and then dragging her into the passageway. So i don't think he killed her, certainly not in that instant. Sorry if i didn't make myself clear.

[Michael W Richards]

Or perhaps the cachous were given to Stride by Jack as a treatment for her bottom lip.
The moment she takes them in her fingers,he strikes .....
BS man,her bodyguard, had already left after an argument about payment.
The trick is to consider all the evidence

I agree. The evidence in this case is that a woman who has current employment "among the jews" is just outside a jewish mens club after a large meeting has ended and the majority of the attendees have left. She is wearing what is described as "her good evening wear" by a lodgemate, and she has a flower arrangement on her jacket and some cashous to freshen her breath in her hand. She requested a lint brush to use before she went out that night. She was paid 6d. She is recently separated from her boyfriend, that same week. She did not know when she would return to the lodginghouse, and gave some fabric to a lodgemate to watch for her in her absence.

So, as you see, speculation that she might have been dressed and had cashous for either a date or a work appointment is entirely in keeping with the evidence.

Since there is no mention of Israel, his story, or the implications of his story at the Inquest, there is no need to continue to imagine any BS man or the encounter as being relevant. The fact that Fanny Mortimer is at her door continuously from 12:50 until 1 am should address the factual relevance of the stories told by Israel and Louis. And Morris, as a result.

Evidence is good, more people should use it.

[DJA]

Or perhaps the cachous were given to Stride by Jack as a treatment for her bottom lip.
The moment she takes them in her fingers,he strikes .....
BS man,her bodyguard, had already left after an argument about payment.
The trick is to consider all the evidence

[Michael W Richards]

With respect to the cachous, I thought where they were found offered a clue.

They were in the left hand, and the left hand was on the ground.
Because she was laid on her left side, that means her left hand was in contact with the ground, but it her hand was palm up.

The cachous were not in the palm of her hand, but caught between her forefinger and the thumb.
She may not have been holding the cachous at all.

If the packet of cachous was already on the ground, and as she fell her left hand fell beside the packet, then as her fingers slowly curled up, her forefinger & thumb trapped the paper packet between them.

In addition to the cashous we have circumstantial evidence provided by witnesses which indicate that Liz A) didn't leave the boarding house with the flower arrangement, but did request to use a lint brush to tidy herself, and B) she likely earned enough that day to buy both the maidenfern and the cashous. It is also said she wore "her best evening dress", which was down to her boot-tops.

The cashous fit very well into that picture, someone who has done some preening for a particular moment or event that hasn't transpired yet. For me that would be either hired to clean the hall, or waiting for a man. And both of those possibilities make sense with the state of the club at that time. The last 30 or so still upstairs, and Mrs D likely starting the cleaning of the dishes in the kitchen,..the door slightly ajar due to the heat created when she heated some water.

[DJA]

Dr Phillips at the Inquest....
The body was lying on its left side, the face being turned towards the wall, the head towards the yard, and the feet toward the street. The left arm was extended from elbow, and a packet of cachous was in the hand.

[Wickerman]

And the pkt of cachous was lodged between her thumb & forefinger. So not actually in her hand, but possibly on the ground.

[Fisherman]

Stride was lying on her left side with the left arm extended from the elbow.

More likely she was attempting a cricketing catch as her final act.

Actually, she was lying ON her left arm, the upper part of it. The arm was angled and protruded from the body.

[DJA]

With respect to the cachous, I thought where they were found offered a clue.

They were in the left hand, and the left hand was on the ground.
Because she was laid on her left side, that means her left hand was in contact with the ground, but it her hand was palm up.

The cachous were not in the palm of her hand, but caught between her forefinger and the thumb.
She may not have been holding the cachous at all.

If the packet of cachous was already on the ground, and as she fell her left hand fell beside the packet, then as her fingers slowly curled up, her forefinger & thumb trapped the paper packet between them.

Stride was lying on her left side with the left arm extended from the elbow.

More likely she was attempting a cricketing catch as her final act.

[c.d.]

I haven't read through the thread so apologies if this has been brought up, but isn't clenched hands a sign of strangulation? If the ripper struck quickly and silently from behind maybe pulling her scarf tight inducing unconsciousness due to lack of blood flow, then lowering Liz towards the ground before cutting her throat. Maybe that explains the Cachous?

Hello Darryl,

The question is how did the cachous survive her being thrown to the ground as Schwartz described and her most likely being pulled into the passageway? This is a separate issue from her death.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

With respect to the cachous, I thought where they were found offered a clue.

They were in the left hand, and the left hand was on the ground.
Because she was laid on her left side, that means her left hand was in contact with the ground, but it her hand was palm up.

The cachous were not in the palm of her hand, but caught between her forefinger and the thumb.
She may not have been holding the cachous at all.

If the packet of cachous was already on the ground, and as she fell her left hand fell beside the packet, then as her fingers slowly curled up, her forefinger & thumb trapped the paper packet between them.

[Darryl Kenyon]

I haven't read through the thread so apologies if this has been brought up, but isn't clenched hands a sign of strangulation? If the ripper struck quickly and silently from behind maybe pulling her scarf tight inducing unconsciousness due to lack of blood flow, then lowering Liz towards the ground before cutting her throat. Maybe that explains the Cachous?

[c.d.]

As far as the cachous goes, it is certainly possible that she somehow managed to hold on to them the entire time. Such things are possible. I just don't think that that is the norm. This argument is easy to test and I have done it myself. Simply ask your friends (without explanation) to throw themselves on your bed or couch. Observe the position of their hands as they fall and as they attempt to get up. Then try to pull them while they are standing and ask them to resist. Again, observe the position of their hand and see if their palm is open as they try to resist.

I recall when the cachous thread was very active. I fell off my bike during that time and landed on my hands before I had time to react. The scuff marks on the gloves I was wearing at the time reflected that.

In conclusion, the best we can do is to say which we think is the most likely scenario.

I should mention that your friends will most likely think you rather strange and simply asking women to throw themselves on your bed is a bit more problematic.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello Wick,

It could be that the killer was poor and that even a small amount of money was significant to him. It could also be that a prostitute having anything of his was an effront to him. Or perhaps a combination of the two.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

I tend to feel that the fact no victims were found with any money on them must play into the killers MO somehow.
Clients were expected to pay up front, so why no money on their bodies?
Which begs the question, was he a client, or did he just attack them?