The Cachous

[lynn cates]

round

Hello Gwyneth.

"If she was standing in the gateway when he "turned her round", I see no problem with her being found three yards in (approx)."

OK. Try this. If BSM meets Liz, it is likely he is facing west, she east, at the confrontation. IF he turns her round--after pulling her--she would naturally be on the other side of him--eastward--FURTHER from the yard.

But, one could interpret this as causing her to rotate 180 degrees. In that case she would be facing west. And if she now hit the ground, she would be on her belly.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

yes

Hello John. Thanks.

Quite.

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

In the yard

Hello John,

Schwarz says "he saw a man stop and speak to a woman who was standing in the gateway" "the man tried to pull her into the street" "turned her around and threw her down on the footway". Sourcebook, Evans and Skinner.

If she was standing in the gateway when he "turned her round", I see no problem with her being found three yards in (approx). The footway could just as easily be the passage in the yard. It is quite possible that she was just inside the gates, which must have been open to let Diemschutz in, he didn't get down to open them.

Best wishes
C4

[John G]

Hello Errata. You make several good points. I like a model that includes a shakedown.

I think my biggest difficulty is finding her assailant deeper in the yard (to the west) and behind her.

Any likely scenario?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Yes, this is problematical for all sorts of reasons. Murder, was pretty uncommon in Whitechapel, so I think it unlikely that Stride would have been killed over a debt, particularly as the perpetrator would have been seen by Schwartz. And, as you suggest, why the need to take her into Dutfield's Yard, and why was she apparently killed whilst attempting to exit the Yard? And then there's the tricky problem of the cachous...

[John G]

Dear John,

As I have said before, translation is not an exact science. In the re-telling and translation things may well have been slightly changed. After all, no-one could know that 100 plus years later people would be picking the statement apart. The killer taking her by the shoulders and forcing her down would explain why she didnīt drop the cachous. While we have no exact evidence as to what happened, we do have common sense, and that tells us that she was likely to have dropped them if she had been thrown to the ground. Schwartz was the best witness to date, so it is possible that the police played down its importance to protect him. We do have the threatening letter: "I know where you live", not that there is any proof it was sent to Schwartz, but it is likely.

Dear DJA,

Liz had lived in England for some years. It is more probable that she followed the London fashions as far she could. Not quite sure what you mean by a bib scarf and I do live in Sweden. I take it you donīt mean as in Swedish national dress? Unlikely.

Hello Errata,

And yet the killer did get his hand in and throttle her with it. From the medical evidence. A neckerchief was somewhat larger than a man`s hanky of (fairly) recent memory.Before tissues, that is.

Best wishes,
C4

Hi Curious,

Of course, that is what Dr Phillips suggests: "...and I opine that the latter [Stride] was seized by the shoulders and placed on the ground..." However, he was referring to an assault taking place in Dutfield's Yard, and not on the footpath as described by Schwartz. In fact, if the attack had taken place in the Yard, during Schwartz's presence, I doubt he would have been able to see anything, as it was obviously so dark in there.

As I've suggested, that's the problem with Schwartz's evidence: you basically have to completely re-write his account for it to make any sense at all.

[lynn cates]

scenario

Hello Errata. You make several good points. I like a model that includes a shakedown.

I think my biggest difficulty is finding her assailant deeper in the yard (to the west) and behind her.

Any likely scenario?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

encapsulation

Hello (again) CD.

"If Stride took the cachous out after being thrown to the ground (which would explain why they didn't spill) wouldn't that seem to indicate that her being thrown to the ground was a minor event and not some brutal attack and that she felt no fear at that time?

It would also negate the argument that the B.S. man immediately forced her back into the passage way as Schwartz left the scene since there would have been no time to take them out.

If the B.S. man did not immediately attempt to take her back into the passage way and there was an argument/and or an offer of cachous, this is all time in which Schwartz could have been seeking out the nearest P.C. Not a real smart move on the part of the B.S. man."

Perfect encapsulation of my and John's points.

Well done!

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

food and cinema

Hello CD. Thanks.

Haggis and a go at "The Quatermass Experiment" do? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

resurrection

Hello Errata. Thanks.

Insult? Moi?

I am accustomed to have illogical things thrown at me--it's my job--and then I try to define, disambiguate and explain to students.

But I am also accustomed to having students understand the vast disparity between their educations and mine, and their adjusting accordingly.

When one is corrected repeatedly, like Batman has been, and perseveres in talking nonsense, it is beyond frustrating.

We used to have a troll on the boards who also talked nonsense on a par with Batman. And, given that he has not posted in awhile, and given his poor grammatical skills, I wonder if he has been resurrected?

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

Translation

Dear John,

As I have said before, translation is not an exact science. In the re-telling and translation things may well have been slightly changed. After all, no-one could know that 100 plus years later people would be picking the statement apart. The killer taking her by the shoulders and forcing her down would explain why she didnīt drop the cachous. While we have no exact evidence as to what happened, we do have common sense, and that tells us that she was likely to have dropped them if she had been thrown to the ground. Schwartz was the best witness to date, so it is possible that the police played down its importance to protect him. We do have the threatening letter: "I know where you live", not that there is any proof it was sent to Schwartz, but it is likely.

Dear DJA,

Liz had lived in England for some years. It is more probable that she followed the London fashions as far she could. Not quite sure what you mean by a bib scarf and I do live in Sweden. I take it you donīt mean as in Swedish national dress? Unlikely.

Hello Errata,

And yet the killer did get his hand in and throttle her with it. From the medical evidence. A neckerchief was somewhat larger than a man`s hanky of (fairly) recent memory.Before tissues, that is.

Best wishes,
C4

[lynn cates]

science

Hello Abby. I am somewhat amused to see you speaking about logical fallacies. Surely I am the one qualified to discuss that?

Moreover, when expecting to have certain results from certain procedures, one is NOT committing a logical fallacy. the technical name is science.

And this is based on cause/effect.

Fallacy? Well, there is the Humean induction problem. But, other than that . . .

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

research

Hello (again) Batman.

"Wet muddy paths are slippery? Yes or no?"

If it were wet and slippery, then Liz's back should be wet, muddy and streaked. It was not.

For pity's sake, mate--DO SOME RESEARCH!!!!

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

empirical research

Hello Batman.

"I don't accept Lynn's proposition that someone with arm around her shoulder did it by pulling it down to the left. That' just an abrupt quick tug."

A tug will NOT decrease the radius of the scarf. However, pulling a tail of a slip knot WILL.

No offense, but do you do ANY empirical research before posting?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

fresh air

Hello John.

"The fact is if Stride were thrown to the ground, let alone dragged several feet, you would surely expect bruising or grazing of some kind. However, there were no bruises found on the body. In fact there were no abrasions of any kind. Moreover, there wasn't even any damage to the clothing."

If it were not for the breath of fresh air provided by such intelligent posts, I would despair in Batman's stifling nonsense.

Thanks. I think I can breathe again.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

no no

Hello (yet again) Batman.

"Obviously you are completely oblivious to JtR's MO of rendering the victim semi unconscious through manual strangulation which involved both hands before the knife comes out."

This is your imagination, Batman. There are NO signs of strangulation save in the cases of Polly and Annie.

Get your facts straight. You are hopelessly confused.

"That's a big no no."

Exactly. So read up on the case. That might end your confusion.

Cheers.
LC