The Cachous

[John G]

Hi John,

Let's try it this way. The B.S. man and Liz are on the street when last seen by Schwartz. The B.S. man needs to get her into the yard in order to kill her and not be seen. Let's assume he does not drag her but she goes willingly. He says let's go back into the yard. She says what for and the B.S. man says ----.

What reason does he give her?

c.d.

Hello c.d.

As I've pointed out in other posts, if he suggests that the incident witnessed by Schwartz was an accident, and if BS man was the same as Marshall's man, he can get Stride into the Yard by offering to take her to the club for a drink, i.e by way of apology, and so she can enjoy the singing and music. There was a side door, which was used by both Lave and Eagle. He could therefore have told Stride that they needed to enter the Yard in order to access the club via the side door.

[John G]

But who should Schwartz have seen at 12.45 ?

The altercation clearly would have taken some time, rather than, say, two people just going into the Yard together. I just think it's a little convenient that the incident happened, according to Schwartz, at 12:45: apparently just after Mortimer went in doors, whilst the couple seen by Mortimer had apparently left, and just after PC Smith, Eagle and Lave were in the vicinity.

[c.d.]

Hi c.d,

Well, if it was a domestic incident, rather than, say, JtR, that does put a different complexion on things. If murder were his intent, however, the Yard was a far better option than the busy, and relatively well-lit, street.

Hi John,

Let's try it this way. The B.S. man and Liz are on the street when last seen by Schwartz. The B.S. man needs to get her into the yard in order to kill her and not be seen. Let's assume he does not drag her but she goes willingly. He says let's go back into the yard. She says what for and the B.S. man says ----.

What reason does he give her?

c.d.

[John G]

Hello John,

I am afraid this still does not answer my question. Assuming the B.S. man was NOT a client but rather a domestic and he does not pull Liz into the yard but rather that she went voluntarily, what would they be going in to the yard to do that they couldn't do in the street?

c.d.

Hi c.d,

Well, if it was a domestic incident, rather than, say, JtR, that does put a different complexion on things. If murder were his intent, however, the Yard was a far better option than the busy, and relatively well-lit, street.

[Jon Guy]

I think it undermines his account to the extent that no one else saw the altercation with BS man, even though several people were in the locality around the relevant time.

But who should Schwartz have seen at 12.45 ?

[John G]

Hello Abby,

I am, as you are, open to all possibilities, provided there are no gaping holes in the theory. As I said, a possible slip-up in translation (I was a translator), could have had the killer forcing (not throwing) Liz to the ground, she was standing in the gateway, possibly having taken a few steps in, the killer twists her scarf, she passes out very quickly and holding the scarf taut, he cuts along the line of the scarf, fraying the edge and obliterating any marks. (She is now lying just inside the gates in the shadows).

I think Schwartz' man was the killer, the fifteen minutes delay caused by waiting in the shadows for the coast to clear. He/they would put themselves at great risk of being seen if they left the yard leaving a body behind them. Far easier to leave in the chaos after the body was found. I also believe he underestimated the number of people who would be out and about in the area at the time.

Best wishes,
C4

I think the difficulty with this scenario is that you would have to virtually re-write Schwartz's account. The police report says that BS man was pulling, not pushing, Stride into the street- the opposite direction to the yard. BS man is described as throwing Stride down, not forcing, on to the footpath, which is clearly outside the yard anyway. Moreover, I still doubt the cachous would have survived Stride being forced to the ground.

[John G]

How does that undermine his account, John ?
How would he know no-one other than those people he saw were about at that time ?

Hello Jon,

I think it undermines his account to the extent that no one else saw the altercation with BS man, even though several people were in the locality around the relevant time. It leaves a very short window for this incident to have taken place, whilst no one else, I.e Mortimer, were present.

[John G]

Hello John

Polly Nichols, Kate Eddowes?

Best wishes,
C4

Hello C4,

Nichols was most likely killed when it was very dark and there were few people about; in contrast Berner Street seemed to be fairly well- lit and there were lots of people about. Miitre Square was largely commercial and Eddowes was killed in the darkest part of the Square.

[Errata]

Hello Errata. Thanks.

"There is a series of moves that makes sense for her to end up where she ended up with the mud and the stains etc."

Agreed. But I am waiting for an alternative to mine to be reproduced.

More than happy to discuss.

Cheers.
LC

The truth is that there is a whole if:then sort of flow chart that hovers in all of our minds, and we have almost nothing we can point to as absolute fact to start crossing off scenarios. If she knew her attacker then this, if she didn't know her attacker, but didn't see him then something else... Frankly I think we need to work backward. Start from how she was found, work back to say, 11 o clock in the evening.

But that's a whole other thread.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby,

I am, as you are, open to all possibilities, provided there are no gaping holes in the theory. As I said, a possible slip-up in translation (I was a translator), could have had the killer forcing (not throwing) Liz to the ground, she was standing in the gateway, possibly having taken a few steps in, the killer twists her scarf, she passes out very quickly and holding the scarf taut, he cuts along the line of the scarf, fraying the edge and obliterating any marks. (She is now lying just inside the gates in the shadows).

I think Schwartz' man was the killer, the fifteen minutes delay caused by waiting in the shadows for the coast to clear. He/they would put themselves at great risk of being seen if they left the yard leaving a body behind them. Far easier to leave in the chaos after the body was found. I also believe he underestimated the number of people who would be out and about in the area at the time.

Best wishes,
C4

yes. I think BS man was probably her killer also. absolutely that scenario works. as a matter of fact I find it more likely that some sort your above scenario is what happened, rather than a cooling off period after the initial assault and stride then going willingly in with BS man to the yard, where she is then killed by him. But like I said Im trying to keep an open mind.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby,

If you look at my first post in the thread "A Killer Other Than the B.S. Man?", you will see all of the questions that a killer other than the B.S. man resolves.

c.d.

will do CD. Thanks!

[curious4]

Hello Abby,

I am, as you are, open to all possibilities, provided there are no gaping holes in the theory. As I said, a possible slip-up in translation (I was a translator), could have had the killer forcing (not throwing) Liz to the ground, she was standing in the gateway, possibly having taken a few steps in, the killer twists her scarf, she passes out very quickly and holding the scarf taut, he cuts along the line of the scarf, fraying the edge and obliterating any marks. (She is now lying just inside the gates in the shadows).

I think Schwartz' man was the killer, the fifteen minutes delay caused by waiting in the shadows for the coast to clear. He/they would put themselves at great risk of being seen if they left the yard leaving a body behind them. Far easier to leave in the chaos after the body was found. I also believe he underestimated the number of people who would be out and about in the area at the time.

Best wishes,
C4

[c.d.]

Hello Abby,

If you look at my first post in the thread "A Killer Other Than the B.S. Man?", you will see all of the questions that a killer other than the B.S. man resolves.

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby,

Um, would she take her cachous out just before servicing a client? Afterwards maybe. I don't think the clientele in the area were interested in minty fresh breath.

Best wishes
C4

Hi curious
I don't know-maybe. perhaps she was, or clients were.

perhaps they had not agreed, to sex, and its more along the lines of what JohnG describes.

Im not wedded to any one scenario, just exploring possibilities at this point.

I will say that at the least, within these different scenarios im exploring I do think it more likely than not that BS man was her Killer and the ripper.

I suppose its possible that he wasn't her killer, and someone else came along after BS man left and killed her, but that for many reasons, which I have made before, I find that highly unlikely.

Could you please let me know what you think happened, or most likely happened?

[Jon Guy]

and that is a factor that clearly undermines Schwartz's account.

How does that undermine his account, John ?
How would he know no-one other than those people he saw were about at that time ?