A Possible Reason Why Jack Didn't Mutilate Liz

[Fisherman]

C.d. asks:

"Aren't we supposed to be on a Liz thread here?"

Absolutely, c.d - the Chapman side-rail came about in comparison.

But since you point to this being a Stride thread, I will answer your question:

"As for the singing possibly drowning out any noice, see the thread regarding the statements of Morris Eagle and Mrs. Diemschutz. They went out of their way to emphasize that they felt certain that they would have heard any noise coming from the yard yet they did not."

You have many a time craved a collection of bruises and a lot of yelling in raised voices to accept the suggestion of a domestic dispute, c.d. I will once again point you to Schwartz´testimony where he states very clearly that although Stride was thrown to the ground, she only cried out in a lowered voice! And - once again - typical of domestic disputes is that you manage them away from curious listeners and onlookers. It is the same today - the maltreatment, whatever form it takes, takes place in hidden conditions, normally in a home.

So what do people do when a home is not at hand? Exactly - they look for a secluded place to replace that home, AND THEY KEEP THEIR VOICES LOW! Just like Schwartz tells us that Liz did.
In many cases, screaming will only result in worse treatment. I have no trouble whatsoever to accept that the row - if there was one - inside the yard may have taken place in whispering, heated voices. Nor do I have any problem accepting the thought that Liz may have been the part that chose the yard - normally, the woman is more conscientious of society´s norms, and therefore she chooses to hide a dysfunctional relationship from curious neighbours and friends.

So, c.d., there is an alternative - and, I would say, very likely - scenario of what would have gone down in the yard if we are dealing with a domestic row. And if the man who cut her had murder on his mind from the outset, he would probably have been so much the happier if nothing gave the presence of the couple away, thus depriving the good Mrs. Diemschutz and the wary Mr. Eagle of any hints of what went on.
This is a scenario that has been extremely relevant since man took up social relations, it remains a very common scenario today, and it would have been just as common in 1888.

The best,
Fisherman

[c.d.]

Hi Fish,

Liz was a prostitute who had been repeatedly abused by Kidney. How concerned could she have been about her social standing? I can't imagine that if Liz saw a probably drunken Kidney coming towards her that she imagined that he was bringing her candy and flowers. I would imagine that her first thought would have been that another beating was on the way. I just can't see her going into the yard with him voluntarily so I guess we see things differently.

As for the noise, I am referring solely to the statements of Eagle and Mrs. Diemschutz. You're right that Schwartz stated that Liz gave out three small cries but that was in the street not in the yard where she was killed. The lack of noise tells me that Liz went into the yard voluntarily. I just can't see her doing that with Kidney. My opinion only. Obviously we see things differently.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

Let me compliment you in that you seem to keep an open mind to all arguments and don't seem to be wedded to a particular point of view. More and more of a rarity on the boards these days.

c.d.

[Fisherman]

C.d. writes:

"Liz was a prostitute who had been repeatedly abused by Kidney. How concerned could she have been about her social standing?"

If you do not understand that, you have not understood the mechanisms involved in domestic violence, c.d. Many a severely beaten woman have denied having been even touched by their spouses, who are described as perfect gentlemen and very loving. Only this week we have a case in Sweden where a famous artist is accused of having beaten his 22 year younger fiancée up very badly, almost cracking her skull in the process. The apartment where it took place is bloodied all over. There are witnesses aplenty and a very sordid prehistory. But the girl says that she had a nasty fall, and that her guy would never, never ...

It´s about self deception, c.d., and the fact that the rest of us laugh does not enter the equation - the women still claim they have a neat relationship with their bullies. "Mine´s a healthy relationship, it is, and if you claim the opposite, you´re a rotten liar!"

Moreover, when did I say that Kidney was the only suspect? I have claimed dozens of times, and will keep claiming, that I think an affair with somebody else is perhaps more credible.

"As for the noise, I am referring solely to the statements of Eagle and Mrs. Diemschutz. You're right that Schwartz stated that Liz gave out three small cries but that was in the street not in the yard where she was killed."

But if she kept her voice down in the street, owing to it being a domestic affair - why would she start yelling in the yard if she did not see what was coming?

"The lack of noise tells me that Liz went into the yard voluntarily."

Bravo - that is exactly what is indicated!

"I just can't see her doing that with Kidney."

Domestic disputes are more often than not a battle where both sides fire away - albeit in different manners. Often, the man hits and beats, and the woman gets her damage done verbally. This may very well have been the type of domestic violence that went down between Kidney and Stride - it is the most ordinary type, according to research. So if he threw her to the ground, Liz may have wanted to retaliate by taking him into the yard and calling him a spineless coward. That, of course, also constitutes a very useful incitament for bringing the knife out.
So if you cannot see this possibility, I sure can. And very clearly too!

"Obviously we see things differently."

Who says we can´t agree on things, c.d? Im with you on that one!

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

C.d compliments Lynn Cates:

"Let me compliment you in that you seem to keep an open mind to all arguments and don't seem to be wedded to a particular point of view."

For a hundred years Liz´belonging to Jacks tally was considered a done deal by almost everybody. So an opened mind on that particular point should no doubt please you!

The best,
Fisherman

[c.d.]

And for more than a hundred years people have believed the earth is round but at your suggestion I shall try to keep an open mind on the matter and consider arguments to the contrary.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello CD. Thanks. I fear my broad mindedness may be the result of my ignorance.

I want desperately to recanonize Liz (and Kelly), but it is hard to get it to add up.

Cheers.

LC

[Fisherman]

C.d:

"for more than a hundred years people have believed the earth is round but at your suggestion I shall try to keep an open mind on the matter and consider arguments to the contrary"

It´s not quite round, c.d. - it is compressed from the poles. Would that constitute "the contrary" to you?

Joking aside, I do think that most research over the last years have tended to dispell the idea of Jack as Strides killer, and I think that is only logical. Did you read Dave Yosts cracking little book "Elizabeth Stride and Jack the Ripper"? If not, you should. It offers very good insight into the different details involved, and Yost deduces - quite rationally and in a very unbiased manner - the same thing as I and many others do; Jack was not in Dutfields Yard on that evening.

But let´s not mourne the loss of Stride too severely - there is always Tabram to fill in for her ...

The best,
Fisherman

[perrymason]

Hi again,

It seems to me that of the 13 or 14 women that are often associated with the crimes and are attacked over the relevant period of time, all were attacked with knives and many had their throats stabbed or slit.

Annie-stab, Ada-stab, Martha-stab, Polly-slit (2 times), Annie-slit (2 times), Liz-slit, Kate-slit (2 times), Mary-slit (? times), Annie-cut, Rose-strangulation, Alice-slit and stab, Frances-slit-(3 times), and of course 2 Torsos and Elizabeth Jackson's remains.

During the period from January 1887 until January 1889 there were 14 trials with either attempted murder or murder as the charge, with a male defendant and a female victim....

-Joseph King charged with the murder of Ann Sutton-(slit throat with razor)
-Thomas Currell charged with the murder of Lydia Green-(wound on temple, 2 cuts on throat by knife)
-Joseph Finemore charged with the murder of Elizabeth Finemore-(stabbed in the stomach with knife)
-John Fyfield charged with the murder of Mary Ann Fyfield-(blow to the head)
-Franz Schultz charged with the murder of Emily Pottle-(Burned by fire)
-Israel Lispki charged with the murder of Miriam Angel-(Ingesting acid)
-William Brickley charged with the murder of Johanna Brickley-(Stabbed with knife)
-Henry Bowles charged with the murder of Emma Bowles-(Poison)
-James White charged with the murder of Margaret White-(Beating)
-Charles Latham charged with the murder of Mary Newman-(Throat cut with knife)
-James Glouster charged with the murder of Eliza Jane Schumacher-(Attempt at abortion)
-Levi Bartlett charged with the murder of Elizabeth Bartlett-(Hammer blow, 3 stabs in neck with knife)
-John Brown charged with the murder of Sarah Brown- This is the third throat cutting murder of the Double Event Night-(Throat cut with knife)
-Henry Glennie charged with the murder of Frances Maria Wright-(Fatal Blow-perhaps death from weak heart) **Interesting footnote on this crime, Mr Glennie was described as ....."he had on a dark suit, a cutaway sort of coat, not an overcoat, and a hat something like that (a chummy), a little wider in the brim" and also "he had on a black cut-away coat, and a felt hat with a square crown."

I cited these cases to illustrate a couple of things. One, death by knife, whether stabs or cuts, was not uncommon. Two, most of the cases showed a relationship had existed between killer and victim. I think we need to remember that strangers killing strangers isnt common. And that slicing women open after the murder is very uncommon.

The Old Bailey files indicate that there were 14 trials for murder for the period I selected, and during that same time 12 new and still unsolved murders occurred,.... The Canonicals, and Annie M, Ada, Emma, Martha, Annie F and Rose....as well as the Whitehall Torso. There are of course more unsolved murders after January 1889 in that area.

When we wonder whether we could possibly have more than one man running about using a knife on women, I think the stats and the fact that the Canonicals only represent half of the unsolved murders that year....most with knives as the instrument....show us thats the only conclusion we can make.

Clearly there were other men killing with knives.
But there was only one who cut his victims open after.

Best regards all.

[Trevor Marriott]

But there was only one who cut his victims open after.

Thats not a proven fact.

There is no doubt the killer cut the throats in a particular fashion which shows a degree of know how.

However the killer caried out a frenzied attack on the bodies cutting and mutilating them. he certainly didnt make a nice neat incision in the abdomens.

[perrymason]

Thats not a proven fact.

There is no doubt the killer cut the throats in a particular fashion which shows a degree of know how.

However the killer caried out a frenzied attack on the bodies cutting and mutilating them. he certainly didnt make a nice neat incision in the abdomens.

I fail to see why you are trying to make this distinction Trevor....all I wrote is that there was only one killer who cut his women open after, I wrote nothing about how neatly he may have done that.

If we assume that the authorities were correct in determining that Jack did not kill Alice Mackenzie, she is most likely a copycat inspired by the Ripper murders.... then you have Polly, Annie and Kate that were cut open after they had their throats slit, after they were on the ground flat on their backs unable to resist...and Mary who was attacked with a knife while in bed...while resisting.

There are only a limited number of victims that have their abdomens opened, I would think that they would be the most likely prospects to match with what Jack shows us he does in the C1 and C2 murders.

Cheers Trevor

[Trevor Marriott]

Just trying to put the "facts" in the correct context

i thinks it is fair to say that say far as Mckenzie and Tabram is concerned both are different from each other and different from Eddowes and Chapman, and all are different to Stride who was different from Kelly who was different from all the others.

So make of it what you will was it one killer or different killers i know where my money lies.

[caz]

Hi All,

Why do people automatically assume that if Jack killed Liz it must have been in preparation to mutilate her? He’d have been doing his thing - perhaps uniquely - at the same spot where he found her.

The equivalent would be a willingness to mutilate Kate by St. Botolph’s, for example, or Annie at the entrance to Spitalfields Market.

If these women went willingly from the point of encounter to their semi-private place of execution (Mitre Square and Hanbury St respectively), we can only guess what might have happened to either of them if they hadn't played ball. But we can assume their killer was not stupid enough to have gone ahead with his mutilation plans at any relatively busy pick-up point - especially if the woman was making a fuss or said she was waiting for someone. He could hardly have got stuck in with the thought of her date turning up at any second and catching him elbow deep in her dead body.

It’s entirely feasible that this same killer had no intention of mutilating anyone in the location where Liz was found. If he did see her there he would have assumed she was up for business, and anything about her behaviour - towards him or in general - could have had a dangerously negative effect on a man who cared nothing for such women and was in the mood to use his knife on one that very night. If he thought his mutilation plans were being hindered in any way, or he was just itching for an excuse to lose his cool, would he have checked himself and not gone for this woman’s throat on the grounds that this wasn’t the right place for a slice and dice job, even if it was the right time and she was just the right type?

Love,

Caz
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[perrymason]

I dont see that there is any evidence that contradicts what the coroners said regarding the murders of Polly and Annie Caz....the killer committed murder so as to facilitate further knife activity.

I dont think a reasonable assumption is that those 2 murders do not suggest patterned behavior that must include post mortem mutilations.

Cheers.

[caz]

But Perry, the man you seem to know so well was not operating on a desert island, nor was he psychic. Do you honestly believe he could have gone on committing successful mutilation murders in that area indefinitely, just because he said to himself: "I must include some kind of post mortem mutilation whenever I take my knife to a woman"?

Can you not imagine any circumstances in which he might have been unwilling or unable to do more than cut quickly and get the hell out?

Love,

Caz
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