A Possible Reason Why Jack Didn't Mutilate Liz

[dixon9]

i think 'jack' must have been worried about being caught in the act with AC(although he had already done a job on her)as it was almost light at the time,plus there was movement from next door etc

[Fisherman]

Hi Dixon!

You may have a point there. Then again, I think he must have entertained those worries at all occasions, and the backyard of Hanbury Street would arguably have afforded as secluded a venue as an outdoor killer could hope for. We are not sure what time Chapman died, but it may very well still have been dark. And the fact that Cadoche needed to go to the loo was something that could of course not be foreseen by the killer.
Hanbury Street therefore represent the same type of venue that Buckīs Row and Mitre Square also stand for; deep into the night, deserted and empty.
Dutfields Yard, though, does not tally with this at all.

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

time of death

Hello. Permit me to add that Chapman's time of death being fixed at 5:30 (7 minutes after sunup) depends a good deal on Richardson's testimony. If he were less than 100% reliable, that time could change significantly.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

more reasons to omit Liz

Hello, Mr. Marriott. In addition, the body placement is not consistent with a Ripper killing. The others were placed on their backs--Liz on the side. It looks like Liz was killed EXITING the yard.

Try acting this out at home. Have a female companion by your side and reproduce the:

1. Sudden pull on the neckerchief from behind with the left hand. (It must be VERY sudden--remember the cachous!)
2. An equally sudden slash with the right hand.
3. Liz being only a few inches from the wall of the club.
4. Her body being found about 3 yds inside the gates, head towards the stable at the end of the yard, feet pointed at the gates.
5. Place the body down gently (remember the "lain down gently" description).

Where is the body if you are going out of the yard? Precisely where Liz was found.

But if she were entering the yard, her left carotid will be aimed right at you. You'd have to rotate her 180 degrees and in doing that (plus the pull on the neckerchief and slash) where do the cachous go?

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

If the killer was somebody other than Jack, why would they bother to lay the body down gently if they had no intention of mutilating it?

c.d.

[dixon9]

thanks fisherman and lynn,i just feel we have to take on trust(and merits) the three witness (Richardson,Long and Cadosch) regarding the time,noises etc.
Or are you saying we disregard all these witness's?

Dixon9
still learning

[lynn cates]

domestic dispute

Hello CD. Well, if it were a sudden altercation--as in domestic dispute--it would be natural for the flared temper to simmer down and a horror at the deed to assert itself. (Oh, Liz, what have I done?)

Cheers.

LC

[lynn cates]

witnesses

Hello Dixon. Let's not disregard them; let's take them cum grano salis.

Remember: Richardson had 3 different stories. The inquest version seems to be number 2. First, he seems not to go into the yard. Then, he does. He sits on the step to trim his shoe. But when questioned, he changes to, I tried, but failed to trim the shoe. (This is reminiscent of a Monty Python skit--The Piranha Brothers. After a denial, Luigi is confronted with the facts and makes a quick reversal: "Yeah, 'e did that. 'E 'ad to!")

Long and Cadosch are hopelessly out of sync with the time. It is likely that she heard 5:15 (not 5:30) strike. She sees a punter and a prostitute close a deal. Albert, meanwhile hears them enter the back yard. She sees Annie's body. (No, No!) Hearing Albert, she (or he) stumbles thinking the killer is coming back.

Work out the times. It's quite logical.

There is a good piece by Vanderlinden regarding this very thing.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

If there were flared tempers, why didn't anybody in the club hear any noise?

Also, if it were a domestic dispute, why would Liz have ended up back in the yard? If it were Kidney and all he wanted to do was "talk" why not do it on the street? The same holds true for somebody else exhibiting signs of jealousy. Liz would have to have been a fool to go back voluntarily into a darkened yard with them. And if she is dragged back into the yard during a domestic dispute, how do the cachous remain in her hand unbroken?

c.d.

[lynn cates]

noise

Hello CD. I am not advocating Michael Kidney. I don't think he could have held it in at the inquest.

It looks like she was meeting someone at the side door of the club. They went a few feet, and it happened.

The big problem for such a scenario: what the devil did she do to cause such an over reaction?

Liz's sound.

Well, we don't know if she did or didn't. If she yelled during the sudden onslaught (which seems unlikely due to anatomical constraints), AND she were heard, would you want your club (socialist) investigated closely by the police? Why not feign ignorance?

Moreover, wasn't there a noisy party in progress?

LC

[dixon9]

thanks again lynn,i am just going by richardson saying it was almost light when he was cutting piece off his boot,cadosch going to little boys room twice and finally long's sighting.
Just feel to many to overlook about approx time/how light it would have been.

Dixon9
still learning

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

I'm sorry but I just can't see the whole domestic scenario. Would any of Liz's neighbors or friends been aware that she was involved in numerous torrid affairs and divulged that information to the police so that they could have pursued it?

Also, if it were a domestic, wouldn't you expect an escalating argument? Wouldn't you expect voices to get louder and louder as the anger built? Wouldn't you expect that Liz would have been slapped around so that she had marks on her face? Your question of what Liz could have done to merit being killed is a good one because whoever killed her wanted her dead.

As for the singing possibly drowning out any noice, see the thread regarding the statements of Morris Eagle and Mrs. Diemschutz. They went out of their way to emphasize that they felt certain that they would have heard any noise coming from the yard yet they did not.

c.d.

[Fisherman]

Dixon9 asks:

"are you saying we disregard all these witness's?"

That I am not, Dixon. But I AM saying that the witnesses stories and timings do not correlate, just as is ordinarily the case with the Ripper testimonies. It is stated that 5.30 was seven minutes after sunup, but we know, for example, that Cadosch said that as he looked at the clock on his way to work, some distance from home, it was 5.32. So we are moving around in the vicinity of sunup, it would seem - but just how bright it was when the Ripper struck is very difficult to say.
It is tempting to see the Chapman deed as a decision along the "itīs now or never" line - the Ripper may have realized that the nights secure conditions were slipping away, and acted on that. He did not need many minutes to do what he wanted.

The best,
Fisherman

[c.d.]

Aren't we supposed to be on a Liz thread here?

c.d.

[lynn cates]

what if

Hello CD. Of course all those are good points. Perhaps domestic in the traditional sense was misleading of me?

Would it not be ironic if she met a fine young Jewish man at her employer's and, although disparate in age, they decided to meet and have a date. What if he met her at the door? What if he were named Kosminski or Kaminski? What if he were having a psychotic episode and feared for his virginity?

Of course, I don't buy it, but it's a thought.

Best.
LC