A Possible Reason Why Jack Didn't Mutilate Liz

[Ben]

Apparently he takes the TIME to get Liz into the yard

Hardly, CD.

If he quickly dragged her into the darkness of Dutfields yard and hastily dispatched her, he wouldn't have been taking much time at all.

[c.d.]

I never really thought of this before but if the killer was Jack, was an actual interruption necessary to make him forego mutilating her or could a wave a paranoia and the fear of being caught have the same result? Keep in mind that there were now more police on the street looking for him than before and if he is caught he will most likely be hanged. I think that would make me just a little paranoid.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hi Ben,

And here I was thinking that I could convince you to chage your mind. Now where is that damn head shake smiley?

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

Not controversial, no. Thought experiments may be fair enough, but the ‘point’ in this case is just a bit - well - pointless.

It's hardly pointless to examine a case on its own merits, Caz - which is all the thought experiment invites us to do.

The technique needn't be confined to thought experiments either. I'm reminded of the fact that astronomers have recently managed to image extra-solar planets, which would otherwise have been undetectable owing to the glare of their parent star. The way the astronomers achieve this is by blotting out the star, so that the planets have a chance of being seen. We know that the star exists, but (in effect) "pretending" that it isn't there is essential in order to make possible the objective analysis of bodies in its periphery.

If ever there were a metaphor of how the "Double Event" should be looked upon, that's it. Put aside "Saucy Jacky", 120 years of Ripper lore, and blot out the glare of the Eddowes murder, and what are we left with?

[Aelric]

I've often wondered if, assuming Ms Stride was a Ripper victim, it could have been less of a case of being interrupted by someone else and more a case of the killer deciding she wasn't "quite right" somehow, finishing her off quickly and heading off. He then comes across Eddowes, who for whatever reason feels more right than Stride, and he sets to work, the disappointment from the earlier faliure spurring him on to further depravity.

I realise that there is no way of knowing how the Ripper felt about his victims and that proving it is impossible, but it has made me ponder on many an occasion.

With regard to the hypothetical MJK-night "Triple Event" musing, the taste for the extreme was already there due to his efforts with CE, and now he'd been granted the opportunity to go even further due to being indoors.

[Shelley]

I've often wondered if, assuming Ms Stride was a Ripper victim, it could have been less of a case of being interrupted by someone else and more a case of the killer deciding she wasn't "quite right" somehow, finishing her off quickly and heading off. He then comes across Eddowes, who for whatever reason feels more right than Stride, and he sets to work, the disappointment from the earlier faliure spurring him on to further depravity.

I realise that there is no way of knowing how the Ripper felt about his victims and that proving it is impossible, but it has made me ponder on many an occasion.

With regard to the hypothetical MJK-night "Triple Event" musing, the taste for the extreme was already there due to his efforts with CE, and now he'd been granted the opportunity to go even further due to being indoors.

Aelric,
I think with the mutilation to Eddowes face is more than likely the killers projection of anger on to her face, perhaps the smell of stale alcohol sparked off a memory, perhaps a memory of his mother, as there weren't any mutilations on Nicholls or Chapman's faces. So i wouldn't think the senario of Stride not being right comes into the equazion. They have victims of similarity but Stride does not fit the similarities of Nicholls, Chapman and Eddowes, in height or features.

[Sam Flynn]

Good first post, Aelric. Welcome

Just a small point - I'd say that the "taste for the extreme" was pretty much there already, even before the Eddowes murder.

[c.d.]

Put aside "Saucy Jacky", 120 years of Ripper lore, and blot out the glare of the Eddowes murder, and what are we left with?

A prostitute with her throat cut?

Why do I keep getting a sense of deja vu here?

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

[SamF: Put aside "Saucy Jacky", 120 years of Ripper lore, and blot out the glare of the Eddowes murder, and what are we left with?]

A prostitute with her throat cut?

Correctamundo! And we know quite a few of those, don't we?

Why do I keep getting a sense of deja vu here?

Because there's nothing new under the sun, CD. Unless one takes the trouble to blot out its light...

[Aelric]

Good first post, Aelric. Welcome

Just a small point - I'd say that the "taste for the extreme" was pretty much there already, even before the Eddowes murder.

True enough. I think I probably should have chose my words a little more carefully there.

I think with the mutilation to Eddowes face is more than likely the killers projection of anger on to her face, perhaps the smell of stale alcohol sparked off a memory, perhaps a memory of his mother, as there weren't any mutilations on Nicholls or Chapman's faces. So i wouldn't think the senario of Stride not being right comes into the equazion. They have victims of similarity but Stride does not fit the similarities of Nicholls, Chapman and Eddowes, in height or features.

Again, true enough. I wasn't meaning the "not feeling right" to imply purely physical criteria however. Again, I'll admit that I'm coming from a place with no evidence and no way to prove it, but what I mean is that given that the killer can't of been of a healthy mental disposition, I don't think it's entirely unreasonable that he had some other psychosis-based criterion for choosing his victims and, with Stride, initially went against this and at the moment he began his "work" he accepted he was wrong and gave up.

I do accept that considering the killers state of mind isn't really of any use, but I thought I'd share anyway.

[Jez]

Here we go again then.
Two women murdered in London by a knife on the same night.
Not in Whitechapel followed by Lambeth or Cricklewood, but both within a short walking distance.
Coincidence?
Both are prostitutes. Both had their their throats cut.
Not within hours and hours but within 45 or so minutes.
What are the odds that the two cut-throats were two seperate prostitute-murdering gentlemen who both escaped detection?
Don't you just love revisionists?

[Shelley]

True enough. I think I probably should have chose my words a little more carefully there.



Again, true enough. I wasn't meaning the "not feeling right" to imply purely physical criteria however. Again, I'll admit that I'm coming from a place with no evidence and no way to prove it, but what I mean is that given that the killer can't of been of a healthy mental disposition, I don't think it's entirely unreasonable that he had some other psychosis-based criterion for choosing his victims and, with Stride, initially went against this and at the moment he began his "work" he accepted he was wrong and gave up.

I do accept that considering the killers state of mind isn't really of any use, but I thought I'd share anyway.

Aelric,
Of course you are entitled to your opinion, others believe Stride to be a possible Ripper Victim, but i can't see it as With Nicholls, Chapman & Eddowes he didn't want anyone drawing attention to himself.
With Stride the man who grabbed her cried out ' LIpski '. Yet with Eddowes the man seen with her only minutes before she was found dead had been talking with her and Eddowes comfortable enough to place a hand on his chest.

[Shelley]

Here we go again then.
Two women murdered in London by a knife on the same night.
Not in Whitechapel followed by Lambeth or Cricklewood, but both within a short walking distance.
Coincidence?
Both are prostitutes. Both had their their throats cut.
Not within hours and hours but within 45 or so minutes.
What are the odds that the two cut-throats were two seperate prostitute-murdering gentlemen who both escaped detection?
Don't you just love revisionists?

Jez,
If you also remember there were suppossed to be two men that man handled Stride within minutes on the same night, one pulling and pushing her to the ground, the other dragging her off to Dutfields yard! What are the odds on that?
It just might be what also sparked off the theory & stories of two men at work doing the ripper killings as well, although i think a film came about and used that with the Royal conspiriacy as well, Dr William Gull.

[perrymason]

Hi Michael,

I reread what Sugden has to say about Liz's murder the other night. I was surprised to learn that the times sited by some of the witnesses were estimates since they did not look at a watch to confirm the time.

c.d.

I dont think anyone had a watch until Blackwell arrived cd...so we have Diemshutz with Post Office clock timing was it?,.. and before him Schwartz's estimated time... as compares with Ms Mortimers times and PC Smiths. Did any have watches.....maybe Fanny, I doubt it though.....might the witnesses have had another reference for time before they are asked for this time ....so they can extrapolate ...we dont know.

We know that they were asked that question and gave answers....so, unsure or not.... they didnt say "I dont remember"...or "I have no idea".They gave times.

Cheers cd.

[Jez]

Jack the Ripper did not exist.
I blame A P Wolfe.