Did BS-man murder Liz Stride?

[lynn cates]

reproduce

Hello Dave.

"I think the pushing motion and throat cutting were one rapid movement."

If you could reproduce this, I'd be GLAD to send my mock knife. Just send your postal.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

quickie

Hello Pat.

"Blimey it makes one realise how violent and quick it could have been."

Agreed. Dr. Blackwell thought 2 seconds.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Stuck in her sweaty little hand Lynn, possibly by cadaveric spasm, or even as Pat ingeniously suggests, a paralysing blow to the olecranon which might've temporarily numbed one or more fingers

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

thumb and forefinger

Hello Dave. Thanks.

Try thumb and forefinger.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Turtles

If you could reproduce this, I'd be GLAD to send my mock knife. Just send your postal.

Thought that was wanted by the mock prosecutor in the case of your mock killing of your missus!

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

AS Churchill said...

Hello Dave. Thanks.

Try thumb and forefinger.

What's the odd digit between friends?

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

fantasy

Hello Dave. Thanks.

Wonder what would have happened had the real thing been "accidentally" substituted? Oh well, no harm from cardboard and styrofoam.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

If he was really deft he could quickly pull the scarf to the left to stop spurting.
Blimey it makes one realise how violent and quick it could have been...Poor Liz.

Yes Pat that's how I see it...and yes it does seem to be very rapid...almost explosive...whether it's the killing or not...total speculation but wonder if he was on some sort of self administered stimulant...might explain the tipsy gait maybe...(and no I'm certainly not suggesting Maybrick!)

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

Winnie

Hello Dave.

"Mr. Churchill, if I were married to you, I'd put poison in your food."

"Lady, if I were married to you, I'd eat it."

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Stuck in her sweaty little hand Lynn, possibly by cadaveric spasm, or even as Pat ingeniously suggests, a paralysing blow to the olecranon which might've temporarily numbed one or more fingers

All the best

Dave

Hello Dave,

I think you and Lynn might be at cross purposes here. You seem to be talking about at the time of death but I believe Lynn is asking how did they survive being thrown to the ground, picking herself back up and possibly fighting off the B.S. man.

c.d.

[Cogidubnus]

No misunderstanding at all cd...we all understand each other perfectly...

I don't think Liz did survive to get up and fight off BSman - I think BSman killed her as Schwartz watched, and it was Schwartz and Pipeman's arrival that interrupted the killer

Lynn on the other hand thinks that Schwartz was a club stooge who made up the whole thing...that her club-related killer in fact came along later and killed her, (cachous and all), just before Diemschutz arrived.

Others reason that Schwartz was an honest witness who saw an assault on Liz which was irrelevant to the killing, and her murderer came along later.

In truth c.d NOBODY KNOWS

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

summary

Hello CD, Dave. Good summaries.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Lynn,

If you would like a scenario that fits the medical opinion, the physical evidence and the speed in which this may have occurred....

Drunk Surly man pokes Liz Stride in the chest while speaking with her just inside the passageway, her back is to the club wall. Drunk Surly man had come up to her while she was waiting in the passage seeking services, and was rebuffed, perhaps rudely,... she said that she was there to meet someone, and had sweets in her hand to freshen her breath to prove it. Drunk Surly Man then menaces Liz so her back is to the wall and he pokes her to emphasize his words. She slips past him moving toward the open gates and is grabbed by Drunk Surly Man from behind, he pulls a knife in his right hand and with his left hand he grabs her by her scarf, which he twists to the left and pulls her off balance backward and to her left,... she is falling onto her left side. As he twists the scarf and moves closer and he slides the knife under her chin and then just pulls it back as he lets go and she falls. She lands on her left side, her legs curl into her body in a fetal position...natural when protecting a wound.

My guess would be that Drunk Surly Man was attending the meeting that night in some form. Perhaps as Security hired for the evening. I dont see why it need be a member, although its possible, but I believe the members wouldnt likely kill someone on their own doorstep, for obvious reasons. So that leads me to suspect someone authorized by the club to be there, and as such, under their supervision. We know from the neighbors that often after Saturday meetings there would be people in the yard and the passageway, they stated as much to the police. So its probable that some people were down there at the time of the murder,... smoking, chatting..finishing the bottle. A woman steps into the passageway from the street....and a now drunk security goon hits on her. Israel is about to leave the club via the side door. The altercation between Drunk Surly Man and Liz begins, Israel walks out behind them and around them, and glances to see her fall as he leaves. When he is approached later by a club staffer, likely Wess, he agrees to say the altercation he saw took place outside the gates, as he approached.

I cant say that this is what happened, or how it went down,...only that this "could be" the real story.

Cheers Lynn

[Cogidubnus]

Hello Michael

Better than your previous scenario at any rate!

As Schwartz has followed Drunk Surly man all the way up the road though, as far as the point of encounter with Liz, why does there need to be a club connection at all?

Just asking...

All the best

Dave

[Investigator]

[QUOTE=Wickerman;269548]Hello D.G.

Hello Wickerman,
Thanks for the reply, I have no issue with establishing that the F.P.goes off at 01.00 since it sets the time that the two Berner boys met Lamb. This logically shifts the commencement of the search to 12.45 - 12.50. It also coincides with the exactitude of the Schwartz statement but does not exonerate Diemshitz finding the body at 01.00, nor does it detract from Swartz not actually being present.
This is about establishing a model which is best supported by evidence rather than haphazard stabs in the dark. Needless to say that all historical social behaviour will be hard to pin down.
I also note that some question the Arbeter Fraint article. What is to be gained for them to make a public claim of a delay in finding the police? Why say anything at all? Wess is obviousely responding to some accusation and trying to project the blame onto the police. But he is not denying that there was a delay he is actually confessing that it occured. That he was open about this may well distance him from any association with a dead body on his doorstep.

Regards D.G