Did BS-man murder Liz Stride?

[Wickerman]

Hi Wickerman

It may well be the case that both Nichols and Chapman were throttled in some way, but it appears that this wasn't an observation noticed in the Nichols case by anyone at the time, or if they did, there's not a mention of it anywhere.

Hi Mr Lucky.
It appears the Press Calendar section is corrupt, so can't check the various sources yet.
However, I was referring to suggestions that the face of Nichols appeared swollen, and that her tongue was between her teeth.
Wasn't her fingers clenched also? - these details I was intending to double-check before replying.

If confirmed, we have indications of suffocation - only indications mind, we can't say for sure. With Chapman we are more certain.

[Mr Lucky]

Hi Mr Lucky.
It appears the Press Calendar section is corrupt, so can't check the various sources yet.
However, I was referring to suggestions that the face of Nichols appeared swollen, and that her tongue was between her teeth.
Wasn't her fingers clenched also? - these details I was intending to double-check before replying.

If confirmed, we have indications of suffocation - only indications mind, we can't say for sure. With Chapman we are more certain.

Hi Wickerman,

Yes I agree, I think she had been throttled.

But the point I'm making is no one at the time thought that Nichols was a victim of anything other than a knife attack. The phrase I'm questioning was 'observation noticed' , I mean she was throttled, but no one seemed to have 'noticed'.

[Wickerman]

Hi Wickerman,

Yes I agree, I think she had been throttled.

But the point I'm making is no one at the time thought that Nichols was a victim of anything other than a knife attack. The phrase I'm questioning was 'observation noticed' , I mean she was throttled, but no one seemed to have 'noticed'.

Ah, I see, ok.
Isn't there a comment about the bruises on her left cheek and right jaw, that may have been caused by a hand over the mouth?

I seem to recall this was commented on, perhaps with a view to her being suffocated?

My own view is that these bruises came about after she was laid out, but this is just my opinion - not the view at the time.

[Mr Lucky]

Ah, I see, ok.
Isn't there a comment about the bruises on her left cheek and right jaw, that may have been caused by a hand over the mouth?

I seem to recall this was commented on, perhaps with a view to her being suffocated?

Hi Wickerman

I think the hand over mouth bruises were assumed to account for the near silence of the attack (residents awake near by, watchmen, etc.) don't think there's any mention of suffocation at all with Nichols pre-Chapman.

My own view is that these bruises came about after she was laid out, but this is just my opinion - not the view at the time

What do you mean by 'laid out' - like knocked out?

Anyway, since it's not a Buck's-row thread, I'll let you get back to BS-man, Best wishes

[lynn cates]

off balance

Hello Jon.

"And yet, the way the scarf was described, as tight around the throat, it appears the killer used it to choke her before the knife was used"

Or, to pull her off balance.

Cheers.
LC

[Hunter]

I agree with you, Lynn. If you want to choke someone, it would appear to me to be natural to have your hands around something other than twisting a neckerchief.

No real control there. And subduing the victim quickly... and killing her thus, seems to be what the evidence suggest... no matter who one thinks did it?

[Garry Wroe]

Low class female. Throat slit left to right. Body close, parallel to a wall in a dark spot. Etc. Nothing indeed.

Assaulted in full view of two onlookers. Comparatively shallow throat wound. Carotid artery only partially severed. Died ‘relatively slowly’ rather than immediately. Clothing undisturbed. Body lying on its side as opposed to in a supine position. No evidence of asphyxiation. No sharp force abdominal injuries.

Like I said, there is nothing about the Stride murder that accords with the deaths of Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly. Small wonder that Dr Phillips thought it unlikely that Stride and Eddowes died at the hand of a single perpetrator.

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon.

"And yet, the way the scarf was described, as tight around the throat, it appears the killer used it to choke her before the knife was used"

Or, to pull her off balance.

Cheers.
LC

Possibly Lynn, giving her time to scream, lash out, grasp at something?
And then the scarf would loosen wouldn't it, when he let go? But this was still tight?

Plus, what control do you have over your victim when she is stumbling off balance?

How about him pulling at both ends of the scarf, tight?

[Wickerman]

I agree with you, Lynn. If you want to choke someone, it would appear to me to be natural to have your hands around something other than twisting a neckerchief.

If the doctors had described finger marks, bruises, then certainly, as they did not, then we are left to ponder...

[harry]

Was it possible for someone other than BS to kill Stride? Of course.Can someone else beside BS,be placed in the near area of the killing? They can.That is,if witnesses were telling the truth.Is there any evidence a witness lied?No.Could the killer have been the Ripper?yes.My opinion is that someone other than BS killed Stride,and that this person was the ripper.Not often that i'm wrong,but I am right this time.

[Wickerman]

Was it possible for someone other than BS to kill Stride? Of course.Can someone else beside BS,be placed in the near area of the killing? They can.That is,if witnesses were telling the truth.Is there any evidence a witness lied?No.Could the killer have been the Ripper?yes.My opinion is that someone other than BS killed Stride,and that this person was the ripper.Not often that i'm wrong,but I am right this time.

If your not wrong often Harry, can I have next weeks lottery numbers?

[Damaso Marte]

Assaulted in full view of two onlookers.

Something under hot dispute, and rejected even by the king of the "not by the same hand" movement.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

My my aren't we sure.

Assaulted in full view of two onlookers.

Yes that is the claim of one individual. An uncorroborated one at that.

Comparatively shallow throat wound.

True. But it got the job done.

Carotid artery only partially severed. True again, but weren't Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes throats cut twice? A difference indeed but might it explain the "shallowness" of the cut on Stride if it was the same individual? Two might have been intended but due to circumstance no second cut or mutilation. Or maybe no mutilations were even intended.

Died ‘relatively slowly’ rather than immediately.

Maybe that could have been the intent.

Clothing undisturbed.

Lack of intent or opportunity.

Body lying on its side as opposed to in a supine position.

Who's to say that the other victims were not in this position before being placed on their backs? If you are not going to mutilate then why reposition?

No evidence of asphyxiation.

Nor Eddowes, yet that didn't seem to matter in Mitre Square. Strangulation takes time, maybe form gave way to function so to speak?

No sharp force abdominal injuries.

Once again lack of intent or the situation did not allow for it.

Like I said, there is nothing about the Stride murder that accords with the deaths of Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly. Small wonder that Dr Phillips thought it unlikely that Stride and Eddowes died at the hand of a single perpetrator.

And his opinion is respected for it by myself.

I'm not saying any of these are the case or even very likely. But as I do with Phillips and others(including your) opinions, respect the possibilities. It is not cut and dry is my long winded ass point. Dealing in absolutes is bad policy without the data to back it up. I am undecided on Stride, for clarity.

[lynn cates]

evidence

Hello Cris. Thanks.

"And subduing the victim quickly... and killing her thus, seems to be what the evidence suggest... no matter who one thinks did it?"

Absolutely. And, in spite of the current fashion, it is with the evidence we must begin.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

scarfing it down

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"Possibly Lynn, giving her time to scream, lash out, grasp at something?"

Could be. But I have shown this CAN be done in the 2-3 second range.

"And then the scarf would loosen wouldn't it, when he let go?"

Not a bit of it. If you recall, from the re-enactment, the scarf's knot was tight and pulled to the left.

"But this was still tight?"

Precisely.

"Plus, what control do you have over your victim when she is stumbling off balance?"

Well, you have a hold of her scarf as you cut her throat--just as I did.

"How about him pulling at both ends of the scarf, tight?"

Well, IF it was a slip knot, one would tighten, one would loosen.

Cheers.
LC