Did BS-man murder Liz Stride?

[Stephen Thomas]

"He hurried down the street glancing up at the IWEC Club as he passed it."
(A-Z 2010).

[Stephen Thomas]

But will you agree that Wess knew Goldstein?

Now how could anyone know that, Lynn?

I reckon Goldstein had just flogged all his fags to Lawende in Spectacle Alley.

Which is still there now but with a different name.

[c.d.]

Hi sox
Fair enough. Imho though I think it's more like 20/80. Bs man was described as wearing a peaked cap and other witnesses described a man with a peaked cap seen with Liz. So I think it's fair to assume that she had been spending some time with bs/peaked cap man before the assault.

I also think the Scwartz may have actually witnesses bs man in the act of cutting her throat during the assault, but did not see the knife under the circumstances.

Plus I find that time frame is too short for another person to come along (if bs man was not her killer)and for Liz to then quickly accompany this new man into the alley. Especially so soon after being attacked. Do you really think she could have recovered emotionally and physically so soon after being assaulted by BS man? I don't. And what are the chances another person with violence on their mind would just happen to show up minutes after the first assault by bs man? I would say pretty slim. The time frame involved just seems too short IMHO for the killer to show up, no one else see him, Liz hook up with him and then go into the yard.

Hi Abby,

You keep using words like assault and attack. While it may technically have been an assault, all Schwartz saw was a woman being pushed to the ground. That's it. Period.

I don't think this was Liz's first night on the street and if a prostitute in Whitechapel couldn't handle a little bit of hassle from drunk men she would probably starve to death.

As for the time frame, how much time would it take for her killer to show up?

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

"Of course it is a possibility."

Does it not feel strained, though? She needed to calm down.

"Of course she could've had them in her hand the whole time with the express intent of not dropping them."

If she fell on her bottom, the cachous would have spilled.

"Ha, that could even explain the not loud screams. To much focus on cachous."

Cute.



Cheers.
LC

Try this as an experiment -- lay on your back or side and try to get up. Chances are you will use your hands by opening them up rather than having them in a fist. Also, you are exerting pressure on your hands and by extension anything in them.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Yes, Abby - look at what he said. I think it might well have been an attempt to exonerate himself, with the feigned belligerence as additional cover.

Phil

Hi Phil,

Well unless the police were total idiots they would have considered Kidney as a prime suspect. I suspect that he had an airtight alibi. If not, wouldn't it make sense for the police to have Schwartz take a look at him?

c.d.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Lynn

Hello Dave. Very well. It is a fairly weak induction.

But will you agree that Wess knew Goldstein?

Sorry but I honestly don't think we can say that with 100% certainty...for one thing are we sure it's our Goldstein, and for another...that many members?

All the best

Dave

[c.d.]

Hello All. With all the remarkable common sense being shown regarding Liz on this thread, I'm thinking about retiring and letting CD take over my work.

Of course, there's always the danger that my retirement would be interrupted by someone. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

While I am flattered by your comment,I am afraid that I would have to expend a great deal of money on dictionaries,thesauruses and latin phrase books and fill my current vocabulary to the brim with a bunch of big woids. Sound like too much trouble.

c.d.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Stephen

"He hurried down the street glancing up at the IWEC Club as he passed it."

Interesting quote Stephen...so no going up to the gate and looking in...just passing, and perhaps looking up at the illuminated top floor...Presumably derived from the Times account of 1st October

All the best

Dave

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

You keep using words like assault and attack. While it may technically have been an assault, all Schwartz saw was a woman being pushed to the ground. That's it. Period.

I don't think this was Liz's first night on the street and if a prostitute in Whitechapel couldn't handle a little bit of hassle from drunk men she would probably starve to death.

As for the time frame, how much time would it take for her killer to show up?

c.d.

Hi cd
I would say never, as bs man was probably her killer. And yes it was an attack and an assault. I am flabbergasted by those who constantly argue that what Schwartz witnessed was no big deal. It is a violent assault. "that's it. Period."
Plus Scwartz ran away, who is to say the assault did not continue?

Let me ask you this. If you were police and investigating who would be your
prime suspect and person you wanted to find and question- bs man or some non existant entity? And a bs man who was described as wearing a peaked cap who several witnesses corroborate by also describing a peaked cap man with Liz and oh what a coincidence also a man wearing a peaked cap seen with eddowes.

C'mon cd look at the big picture.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi cd

Try this as an experiment -- lay on your back or side and try to get up. Chances are you will use your hands by opening them up rather than having them in a fist. Also, you are exerting pressure on your hands and by extension anything in them.

Ah, but if you can't get up ever again...

I'm not saying you're wrong about another chap turning up...we don't know...but the window of opportunity seems very small to me. If at the end Schwartz was actually looking back and viewing BS with Liz in the semi-dark of the passage from behind, perhaps he couldn't see that much of what was actually going on before he fled? But I'm only speculating, it's true...

All the best

Dave

[c.d.]

Hi cd
I would say never, as bs man was probably her killer. And yes it was an attack and an assault. I am flabbergasted by those who constantly argue that what Schwartz witnessed was no big deal. It is a violent assault. "that's it. Period."
Plus Scwartz ran away, who is to say the assault did not continue?

Let me ask you this. If you were police and investigating who would be your
prime suspect and person you wanted to find and question- bs man or some non existant entity? And a bs man who was described as wearing a peaked cap who several witnesses corroborate by also describing a peaked cap man with Liz and oh what a coincidence also a man wearing a peaked cap seen with eddowes.

C'mon cd look at the big picture.

Hello Abby,

You describe it as a violent assault. But how do you know that? It could have been unintentional for all we know. What do you think the penalty would be for pushing a prostitute to the ground? Liz's reaction (small screams) to me seems much more in line with surprise. Also, we have to believe that the BS man would go on to kill her after being seen by witnesses, one (Schwartz) who the BS man could reasonably assume ran off to fetch the nearest policeman.

I find it very hard to believe that what took place between Liz and the BS man as described by Schwartz was a rare event in Whitechapel. It grows in significance because of the time factor.

I agree that the BS man is a prime suspect but there are a number of issues (to me anyway) with him being the killer especially the whole cachous business which would argue against the assault continuing.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hi cd



Ah, but if you can't get up ever again...

I'm not saying you're wrong about another chap turning up...we don't know...but the window of opportunity seems very small to me. If at the end Schwartz was actually looking back and viewing BS with Liz in the semi-dark of the passage from behind, perhaps he couldn't see that much of what was actually going on before he fled? But I'm only speculating, it's true...

All the best

Dave

Hi Dave,

Yes, good points. But all we have is Schwartz's statement and according to him Liz was alive and kicking when he left the scene.

c.d.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi cd

Yes, good points. But all we have is Schwartz's statement and according to him Liz was alive and kicking when he left the scene.

But that's the point cd...unfortunately we don't...

We have Swanson's report describing the statement, (and some related Home Office correspondence), plus the Star article for whatever it might be worth...and neither explicitly describe Strides state, alive or dead, at the time Schwartz leaves...so we don't know,

Interestingly Sir Charles Warren in his 6th November correspondence with the Under Secretary of State does use the word "assaulting", so it was presumably being seen in that light...

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

card

Hello Stephen. Thanks.

"Now how could anyone know that, Lynn?"

From the card.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

agreed

Hello CD. Thanks.

We already agree, right?

Cheers.
LC