Why No Stride Mutilations ?

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

There was a reported sighting by a watchboy who saw a man and a woman leave Aldgate station, going towards Mitre-square, and the man returning shortly afterward alone. They might have walked to Mitre St and observed Watkins leaving Mitre square on his beat and, with a little local knowledge, expected they had nearly 15 minutes until he returned. That was the same night that Albert Bachert had his encounter with the strange man carrying a black bag in the Three Nuns pub which is adjacent to the station, and Eddowes was arrested in that vicinity earlier.

Cheers, George

Hi George.

I do recall that story (I just looked it up again), I remember thinking where the watchboy was, you can't see Aldgate Station & Mitre Sq. from any one location.
If he saw the couple come out of Aldgate Station, he could have seen them turn into Duke St. or further down, turn into Mitre Street, which in either case is "towards Mitre Square", but also towards many other addresses too.
I wonder if there is a more detailed report that says the watchboy followed the couple?

[Scott Nelson]

I tend to dismiss the couple seen standing at the entrance to Church Passage as Eddowes and the Ripper. Reluctantly so, because it dismisses my formerly favored witness, Joseph Levy. I think the Ripper and Eddowes did watch Watkins from somewhere along Aldgate-High street, and then entered the Square after seeing Watkins exit. By the time Harvey came down Church Passage, the murderer had already left, being seen minutes before by Watkins as he was exiting St. James Passage.

[GBinOz]

Jeff, surely if CPC are not Eddowes & JtR, then the only other contenders are the 'people' who passed through St. James Place at 1:30, which means the killer had something close to 10 minutes - 1:30 (Blenkingsop) -1:40 (Harvey), give or take a minute or two.
A much more comfortable timeline.

Hi Jon,

There was a reported sighting by a watchboy who saw a man and a woman leave Aldgate station, going towards Mitre-square, and the man returning shortly afterward alone. They might have walked to Mitre St and observed Watkins leaving Mitre square on his beat and, with a little local knowledge, expected they had nearly 15 minutes until he returned. That was the same night that Albert Bachert had his encounter with the strange man carrying a black bag in the Three Nuns pub which is adjacent to the station, and Eddowes was arrested in that vicinity earlier.

Cheers, George

[Parisi North Humber]

Hi Sunny, the appearance of a hanky connected with most of the victims has always piqued my interest also. In LVT period and prior there was a language of hankerchiefs (along the same lines as the language of fans). There was a resurgence in the 1980s homosexual community where it was known as "flagging". The position and colour of the bandana (hanky) demonstrated your sexual predilections.
so i've often wondered if the "red hanky" was a signal that said lady was available for business or perhaps the services on offer. I could be wrong (and often am) but I believe it was MJK (according to Hutch) who remarked to Aman that she had lost her hanky, I always thought it a strange opening gambit unless the mention of a lost hanky was "trade terminology".


Helen x

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’m just wondering if the corner where the murder took place might have provided at least partial cover against the heavy rain that delayed the departure of Lawende and co? Also, perhaps their 3-5 minutes wait was a period of slowing down for the rain? So combined with any cover provided by the building they could have been in place at around 1.30 in what, to them, might have been very light rain?

[Wickerman]

Anyway, my point is, that even if the CPC isn't Eddowes and JtR I think the times we have still suggest the same timeline...

Jeff, surely if CPC are not Eddowes & JtR, then the only other contenders are the 'people' who passed through St. James Place at 1:30, which means the killer had something close to 10 minutes - 1:30 (Blenkingsop) -1:40 (Harvey), give or take a minute or two.
A much more comfortable timeline.

Blenkingsop's well-dressed visitor must have been a detective, we know Major Smith had charged his force with paying particular attention to couples out late at night. Which implies this man was following a couple (male & female) into St. James Place, so even if Blenkingsop could not be sure who passed him, there is a strong likelihood it was a man & woman, because the well-dressed man was apparently following such a couple.
Had the 'people' been anything other than a male & female, there wouldn't be any point in publishing the story, it had no value.

[Wickerman]

... even if the Church Passage Couple wasn't Eddowes and JtR, it seems unlikely that JtR would be attacking Eddowes in Mitre Square until after the rain as well (probably sheltering)....

Hi Jeff.
Conversely, wouldn't you think the rain would offer him cover?, less likelihood of interruption. Especially if anyone was to pass through the square, they would be paying much less attention to their surroundings as they hurry passed someone in the corner.

[JeffHamm]

It is very difficult to see how the couple seen was not Eddowes and JTR. In fact at the inquest it was stated the killer needed at least five minutes to perform the murder and mutilations. The timeline works for Lawende's suspect but more importantly it also ties in with why he took the piece of apron. Disturbed by PC Harvey's footsteps he cuts a piece of apron away to clean his knife when he gets a chance. It so happens that he got that chance on Goulston Street.

Hi SD,

There's a few statements worth considering. The first is that Lawende and co. leave at sometime around 1:33-1:35 (Leve states they waited 3-4 minutes after 1:30 and Lawende states 5, so their departure is 1:33-1:35). And that departure was based upon a heavy rain stopping. So, even if the Church Passage Couple wasn't Eddowes and JtR, it seems unlikely that JtR would be attacking Eddowes in Mitre Square until after the rain as well (probably sheltering). Also, Dr. Sequeria (sp?) estimated 3 minutes for the murder and mutilations, so again, we have a range of estimations to work with (and some modern medical opinions have been as short as 2, but that seems awfully quick).

Anyway, my point is, that even if the CPC isn't Eddowes and JtR I think the times we have still suggest the same timeline, only that one has to work out where Eddowes and JtR enter the square from. There's two other entries, so it's possible, and the one to St. James was covered (offered shelter). But of course, what we don't have is any sighting of a couple for the other entries. There's Blenkinsop who says he saw people about in St. James, but he doesn't say he saw a couple specifically.

So, while I think the CPC are the odds on favorite for Eddowes and JtR, I think we have to seriously consider other options. In my view, even if we do that, not too much changes.

- Jeff

[Sunny Delight]

Something that piqued my interest also was this. Eddowes was arrested earlier the previous evening and taken to the station. Here is a very interesting answer to a question posed by a juror to Constable George Hutt:

Juror: Do you search persons who are brought in for drunkenness? - No, but we take from them anything that might be dangerous. I loosened the things round the deceased's neck, and I then saw a white wrapper and a red silk handkerchief.

Joseph Lawende's description of the man with Eddowes mentions him wearing a red handkerchief tied in a knot. It may be speculative but is there a possibility the red handkerchief was say John Kelly's and Eddowes used it to flirt with her client. She gives him the handkerchief saying it would look good on him then she continues to flirt with her hand on the man's chest. They then go towards Mitre Square. The Ripper leaves the handkerchief behind and it is listed in Eddowes possessions. It as I say is speculative but maybe something worth exploring.

[Wickerman]

Thanks Wick. I thought I recalled it being questioned whether he’d actually gone to the end of the passage or not. He claims to have done just that of course but there has to be a chance that he didn’t bother.

I just wondered how it’s known that it wasn’t his responsibility to check Mitre Square as he appears to claim that it was?

Sorry, I meant Mitre Sq. was not on Harvey's beat, so it wasn't his responsibility to check the square.

Agreed, he does claim to have walked to the end of the passage, and I have no reason to doubt he did.
He says he stood there for a minute or so, but it is unlikely he could see across the square with a gaslight over his head, it kind of limits your vision when you stand in a halo of light.
Neil once suggested it was the beat constable's duty to check the function of municipal gas lamps, so he was of the opinion PC Harvey likely did go to the end of the passage where the lamp was.

[Herlock Sholmes]

No your coat suggestion is the most bizarre can you imagine the killer saying to the victim "Hold on a minute i am going to take my coat off before I murder you so as i dont get blood on it" or the thought of the killer after murdering her taking his coat off to perform the mutilations and organ removals before putting it back on as Pc Harvey gets closer

what planet are you on?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Ever heard of strangulation Trevor? Strangle first - then coat off - then mutilate - then coat back on. I’m on earth, you should try visiting it someday?

[Sunny Delight]

If he needed to escape quickly I doubt the knife cleaning would have been his main concern, every second he wasted would have been a second towards his detection and cutting a piece of apron before escaping is unthinkable with a police office bearing down on him, because he was not to know that Harvey would not come into the square

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Well he evidently according to the Doctors did just that. He used the apron to clean his knife according to those who saw the piece. The timeline works and there is nothing contradictory. For instance if the Doctors had said the mutilations had to have taken at least ten minutes then the couple Lawende saw would likely not be Eddowes and JTR. But they didn't they said at least five. If Lawende had seen the couple at 1:40am they evidently would not have been Eddowes and JTR. But he didn't. He and his companions estimated probably 1:33am- 1:35am.

And so we have the Ripper in the Square at approx 1:35am- 1:36am with a murder and mutilations taking at least five minutes. PC Harvey comes down Church Passage and it is his footsteps- not the sight of him that prompts the Ripper to cut away a piece of apron and flee. Of course cleaning the knife was of upmost importance as being found in possession of a bloodied knife so close to the crime scene would have seen one arrested no doubt. And so once he flees and wipes the knife cleaning he discards the apron. PC Halse and PC Long don't see it at 1:55am. Why would they? Halse even admitted he need not have seen it. Long disagreed but subsequent events show him not to be the most reliable.

[Trevor Marriott]

Of course, wearing a coat is such a ludicrous idea…..as if people wear coats!! And then…….taking it off!! How preposterous…..why would he have wasted the 3 seconds that it would have taken?!! And then to top it all off…….he puts the coat back on!!!! The very thought!!

Who’d have possibly considered of such a complex piece of subterfuge. Such fiendishness!

You come up with the most far-fetched, provably wrong twaddle about the apron and then pour scorn on the suggestion that the killer might have taken a coat off then put it back on!!! A more perfect example of Ripperological bizarreness I can hardly imagine.

No your coat suggestion is the most bizarre can you imagine the killer saying to the victim "Hold on a minute i am going to take my coat off before I murder you so as i dont get blood on it" or the thought of the killer after murdering her taking his coat off to perform the mutilations and organ removals before putting it back on as Pc Harvey gets closer

what planet are you on?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

Who knows how you would react in such a state of panic? The most likely thing is if he often cleaned the knife on clothing before he left the scene then to cut a piece of apron for the same purpose when he got a chance.

If he needed to escape quickly I doubt the knife cleaning would have been his main concern, every second he wasted would have been a second towards his detection and cutting a piece of apron before escaping is unthinkable with a police office bearing down on him, because he was not to know that Harvey would not come into the square

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Sunny Delight]

Put yourself in the shoes of the killer if you were committng a murder and you saw a police man coming down the passage towards you would you stop and cut a piece of apron not on your life you would want to escape as quick as possible maybe even leaving the knife behind

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Who knows how you would react in such a state of panic? The most likely thing is if he often cleaned the knife on clothing before he left the scene then to cut a piece of apron for the same purpose when he got a chance.