Why No Stride Mutilations ?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

I've a couple of 'wait a minutes" on your revised theory. There is a considerable height difference in the description of Parcelman by Smith and the description of Pipeman by Schwartz. Brown describes the man as wearing a full length, down to the ground overcoat, and doesn't see a flower on Stride, which doesn't match the other descriptions, and there was a report that a young couple occupied that spot, and Brown doesn't mention two couples. But your theory doesn't rely on that, so skip that part, and you have a possibility, albeit complete conjecture.

If the Schwartz incident occurred before the Smith sighting it could provide a reason why he may not have been called to the inquest. It would also explain why Mortimer missed the whole incident.

Cheers, George

Hi George,

None of it is anything that I’m relying on of course but I was just thinking around 3 possibles. 1) that the incident might have been less serious than we’ve assumed, 2) that estimations of times can be wrong, and 3) that identifications can be mistaken/inaccurate.

I don’t think that I could face a whole thread on the subject though

[FISHY1118]

and where is that statement ?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

You know where .

[FISHY1118]

Fishy,

I live in eastern Australia and as I write this my clock is telling me it is 8:12 in the evening. Depending on where you live, your clock is telling you a different time. Are you right, or am I? It was the same, to a lesser extent of course, in London in 1888. The most likely times in 1888 were police times.

Cheer, George

George, I also live on the East Coast of Australia , so i guess were both right . Point is Schwartz, Eagle Demiz and Blackwell could also have been just as ''right'' or wrong as you suggested, which is more probabale tho . ?

[Trevor Marriott]

Never mind sunny there is a Schwartz statement, we all know that . So id just ignore such attempts to suggest otherwise.

and where is that statement ?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

Of course the same could be said for today. However the similar descriptions given of two men seen with victims one hour apart, within at most 10-15 minutes of their deaths- as I say there is nothing that one could point to in order to dismiss this. It is too easy to dismiss it as something generic that could describe anyone. You have to consider the context in which those descriptions were given. You also need to compare them to other descriptions of men that night. Not very similar to those or even other descriptions from other murders. You just like to dismiss things to try and be innovative. Nothing wrong with that but it can leave you chasing your tail......

I am not sugesting that the descriptions be dismmised I am simply trying to explain that caution is needed when identification issues are concerned.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[GBinOz]

So i guesss if ''Time'' is to used one way or the other for any senario of these murders, then Everyone could be correct ,or incorrect including brown,lamb kozebrodski . Ill stand by the one ive mention as the most likely of them all.

Fishy,

I live in eastern Australia and as I write this my clock is telling me it is 8:12 in the evening. Depending on where you live, your clock is telling you a different time. Are you right, or am I? It was the same, to a lesser extent of course, in London in 1888. The most likely times in 1888 were police times.

Cheer, George

[GBinOz]

I realise that this post was to a post by George but….

I really don’t see why we should use any more caution when speculating on timing errors than we should apply to accepting timings? Any time mentioned could have been wrong to some extent. We should have a high level of confidence in Blackwell of course, as you say, but even for him a watch can be a minute or two out.

Another suggestion….. could Pipeman and Parcelman have been one and the same? We all know about how inaccurate witness identification can be. Schwartz mentioned no parcel of course but the man was in a doorway in the dark and how sure can we be that he didn’t simply put the parcel under his arm while he was lighting his pipe and Schwartz just didn’t notice?

So scenario mk2…… the Schwartz incident occurs at 12.30 - Schwartz and BS man leave the scene - Stride crosses over to near the corner of Fairclough Street and Pipeman goes over to ‘check that she’s ok’ - Smith passes and sees them talking - they move around the corner where Brown sees them - they return to the gates (perhaps just intending to pass them on the way to somewhere else?) but Pipeman pulls her into the yard and kills her?

Hi Herlock,

I've a couple of 'wait a minutes" on your revised theory. There is a considerable height difference in the description of Parcelman by Smith and the description of Pipeman by Schwartz. Brown describes the man as wearing a full length, down to the ground overcoat, and doesn't see a flower on Stride, which doesn't match the other descriptions, and there was a report that a young couple occupied that spot, and Brown doesn't mention two couples. But your theory doesn't rely on that, so skip that part, and you have a possibility, albeit complete conjecture.

If the Schwartz incident occurred before the Smith sighting it could provide a reason why he may not have been called to the inquest. It would also explain why Mortimer missed the whole incident.

Cheers, George

[FISHY1118]

I realise that this post was to a post by George but….

I really don’t see why we should use any more caution when speculating on timing errors than we should apply to accepting timings? Any time mentioned could have been wrong to some extent. We should have a high level of confidence in Blackwell of course, as you say, but even for him a watch can be a minute or two out.

Another suggestion….. could Pipeman and Parcelman have been one and the same? We all know about how inaccurate witness identification can be. Schwartz mentioned no parcel of course but the man was in a doorway in the dark and how sure can we be that he didn’t simply put the parcel under his arm while he was lighting his pipe and Schwartz just didn’t notice?

So scenario mk2…… the Schwartz incident occurs at 12.30 - Schwartz and BS man leave the scene - Stride crosses over to near the corner of Fairclough Street and Pipeman goes over to ‘check that she’s ok’ - Smith passes and sees them talking - they move around the corner where Brown sees them - they return to the gates (perhaps just intending to pass them on the way to somewhere else?) but Pipeman pulls her into the yard and kills her?

''Another suggestion….. could Pipeman and Parcelman have been one and the same'' Yes



However given that Pipeman followed Schwartz who ran as far as the Railway Arch but Pipeman didnt follow as far. [ how far is the arch from where Schwartz started his run . ? How far do we estimate Pipeman got befor he stopped? , what problems now come into play if he had to double back to kill Stride ?. Its just possible also that Pipeman never returned to the spot where Schwartz originally saw him after finished following him .

[FISHY1118]

Hi Fishy,

One of the things that is definitely not known is accurate times. Have a look at the second post here:

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-crime-scenes/8950-a-matter-of-timing-berner-street-witness-time#post120389

The clocks of the era were doing well to be plus or minus 10-15 minutes on GMT - if one clock were running fast and another running slow there could be 20-30 minutes difference. Times like that of Eagle were pure guesses. Eagle says he returned at 12:40, when Kozebrodski said he was standing over the body of the person Brown said he saw in Fairclough St at 12:45. Diemshitz says he turned into Berner St at "exactly' one o'clock, when Lamb says he was being summoned to the murder site by Eagle. Blackwell's pocket watch was not synced with the press reports of his house clock as stated by Johnson, and the press reports disagreed with each other.

Accurate to the minute times are unrealistic for this era. They only became possible studying CC footage a hundred years later. Stick to sequences.

Cheers, George

So i guesss if ''Time'' is to used one way or the other for any senario of these murders, then Everyone could be correct ,or incorrect including brown,lamb kozebrodski . Ill stand by the one ive mention as the most likely of them all.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi George , I guess i could [with out the eloquence and detail of a Jeff Hamm post type response] reiterate as ive already done ,the caution one needs to consider when useing the ''clock sync errors'' debate to invent new senarios where certain victims are concerned.

In Strides case moving the B.S incident back to 12.30am that might allow for a new synopsis , ,Schwartz, Morris Eagle , Diemschutz and Dr Blackwells version of events would all have to be no doubt dissmissed .

I just think thats a bit to much to ask for very obvious reasons . That is to say , all four of their accounts of the event that night ''Actually Fit''

1 Eagle enters the club via the yard through the gates at 12.40am , his in the club at 12.41/2 [No dead body]

Eagle’s return isn’t affected by my suggested scenario. If the Schwartz incident occurred earlier there would still have been no body for Eagle to have seen.

2. Schwartz see the incident with Stride and B..S at 12.45am

But we have absolutely no way of confirming that time. He might have been correct in his suggested time of course but have no way of knowing how he had arrived at it. For example he might have heard a distant bell 30 minutes before the event but misheard whether it was the quarter past or half past bell. Again, I’m not stating anything as a fact but, at a time when most poorer people didn’t own watches or even clocks timing errors are to be expected.

3. B.S man kills Stride after Schwartz and Pipeman leave the scene 12.47/8

But we can’t know for certain that BS man killed Stride. It might be the likeliest conclusion but it can’t be a certainty and if the incident had occurred at 12.30 that would have given ample time for someone else to come on the scene.

4 Diemschutz discovers the body at exactly 1.00am [ 'exactly' were his words , leaving ony 12mins without Strides body being discovered by someone else.Its surely reasonable to except that no one came into the yard befor Diemschutz? . The 12.30/5 time leaves an awful long time without Strides discovery given what was going on in and around the club [not impossible, but how likley?] .

I think that you’ve misunderstood my speculated scenario Fishy? I’m wasn’t suggesting that Stride was killed at 12.30. My suggestion was that the Schwartz incident might have occurred at around 12.30 but it didn’t result in Stride’s death. I suggested that after the incident BS man left the scene and Stride was still very much alive. Stride was then killed some time after Eagle’s return and before Diemschitz returned.

5. Dr Blackwell consults his watch its 1.16am, he advises the body had been dead from 20 mins to half an hour . This fits almost exactly if indeed Stride was killed at 12.45/7

I’d just stress again Fishy that I’m not strongly promoting this scenario. I was simply making a suggestion for discussion. That scenario wouldn’t clash with the events unless we insist on exact times which I’m wary of doing. Except for Blackwell of course.


For me, as is the case with all the murders, id prefer to work with what is known than what is not . Just sayin. Cheers Fishy

I realise that this post was to a post by George but….

I really don’t see why we should use any more caution when speculating on timing errors than we should apply to accepting timings? Any time mentioned could have been wrong to some extent. We should have a high level of confidence in Blackwell of course, as you say, but even for him a watch can be a minute or two out.

Another suggestion….. could Pipeman and Parcelman have been one and the same? We all know about how inaccurate witness identification can be. Schwartz mentioned no parcel of course but the man was in a doorway in the dark and how sure can we be that he didn’t simply put the parcel under his arm while he was lighting his pipe and Schwartz just didn’t notice?

So scenario mk2…… the Schwartz incident occurs at 12.30 - Schwartz and BS man leave the scene - Stride crosses over to near the corner of Fairclough Street and Pipeman goes over to ‘check that she’s ok’ - Smith passes and sees them talking - they move around the corner where Brown sees them - they return to the gates (perhaps just intending to pass them on the way to somewhere else?) but Pipeman pulls her into the yard and kills her?

[GBinOz]

Exactly. It is a very good summary of what Schwartz said and ties in well with the press statement. So yeah I won't be going there with Trevor. I think it is something often overlooked the similarities between B.S man and Lawende's suspect. To my mind it's the same person although of course we can never prove it as the killer was never caught.

Trevor's right. Modern studies using CC camera footage have shown that eye witness testimony is unreliable. Press statements even more so.

[GBinOz]

Hi George , I guess i could [with out the eloquence and detail of a Jeff Hamm post type response] reiterate as ive already done ,the caution one needs to consider when useing the ''clock sync errors'' debate to invent new senarios where certain victims are concerned.

In Strides case moving the B.S incident back to 12.30am that might allow for a new synopsis , ,Schwartz, Morris Eagle , Diemschutz and Dr Blackwells version of events would all have to be no doubt dissmissed .

I just think thats a bit to much to ask for very obvious reasons . That is to say , all four of their accounts of the event that night ''Actually Fit''

1 Eagle enters the club via the yard through the gates at 12.40am , his in the club at 12.41/2 [No dead body]

2. Schwartz see the incident with Stride and B..S at 12.45am

3. B.S man kills Stride after Schwartz and Pipeman leave the scene 12.47/8

4 Diemschutz discovers the body at exactly 1.00am [ 'exactly' were his words , leaving ony 12mins without Strides body being discovered by someone else.Its surely reasonable to except that no one came into the yard befor Diemschutz? . The 12.30/5 time leaves an awful long time without Strides discovery given what was going on in and around the club [not impossible, but how likley?] .

5. Dr Blackwell consults his watch its 1.16am, he advises the body had been dead from 20 mins to half an hour . This fits almost exactly if indeed Stride was killed at 12.45/7

For me, as is the case with all the murders, id prefer to work with what is known than what is not . Just sayin. Cheers Fishy

Hi Fishy,

One of the things that is definitely not known is accurate times. Have a look at the second post here:

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-crime-scenes/8950-a-matter-of-timing-berner-street-witness-time#post120389

The clocks of the era were doing well to be plus or minus 10-15 minutes on GMT - if one clock were running fast and another running slow there could be 20-30 minutes difference. Times like that of Eagle were pure guesses. Eagle says he returned at 12:40, when Kozebrodski said he was standing over the body of the person Brown said he saw in Fairclough St at 12:45. Diemshitz says he turned into Berner St at "exactly' one o'clock, when Lamb says he was being summoned to the murder site by Eagle. Blackwell's pocket watch was not synced with the press reports of his house clock as stated by Johnson, and the press reports disagreed with each other.

Accurate to the minute times are unrealistic for this era. They only became possible studying CC footage a hundred years later. Stick to sequences.

Cheers, George

[Sunny Delight]

The statement of course thats referred to is the Report made by Chief inspector Swanson from Schwartzs statement which is recorded and exist in the home office files .

Exactly. It is a very good summary of what Schwartz said and ties in well with the press statement. So yeah I won't be going there with Trevor. I think it is something often overlooked the similarities between B.S man and Lawende's suspect. To my mind it's the same person although of course we can never prove it as the killer was never caught.

[FISHY1118]

Yeah best not to go down that particular rabbit hole. We don't have a statement but we do have a very good summary of what Schwartz said. It isn't hard to work out where everyone stood and what the lighting would have been like. Added to that through the statement we can see that the incident lasted mere seconds. With Lawende possibly ten seconds or so.

The statement of course thats referred to is the Report made by Chief inspector Swanson from Schwartzs statement which is recorded and exist in the home office files .

[Sunny Delight]

But the descriptions as i stated could have fitted half of the men in Whitechapel you should read bth the coroners summing up and Swansons report regarding the identification issues

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Of course the same could be said for today. However the similar descriptions given of two men seen with victims one hour apart, within at most 10-15 minutes of their deaths- as I say there is nothing that one could point to in order to dismiss this. It is too easy to dismiss it as something generic that could describe anyone. You have to consider the context in which those descriptions were given. You also need to compare them to other descriptions of men that night. Not very similar to those or even other descriptions from other murders. You just like to dismiss things to try and be innovative. Nothing wrong with that but it can leave you chasing your tail......