Why No Stride Mutilations ?

[FISHY1118]

All based on a testimony of a man who has never been proven to exist.

No record exists of Israel Schwartz. The man who walked into give his statement to Abberline giving this name cannot be found in any record. Yet somehow a journalist in The Star found him (and his interpreter was home as well which was a tad fortunate). Swanson didn't have the right address. Who really was he and why should we believe him if we can't even find him? How do we know this is not a false statement?

I will say it again. Take Israel Schwartz out of the equation with all the things he supposedly saw and the timings. Then see how the scene plays out - it makes much more sense.

I think we should use whats available to us that has been documented and thats on offical record , instead of venturing into the realmes of the ''Twilight Zone'' with people who may or may not have existed .

Theres already way to much of that type of thinking going around here with phantom Organ Harvesting Goules and authors suggesting that Jack the Ripper was some sort of myth and never existed at all . !!!!!!! , now we have witnesses that are starting to disappear as well , gosh where will it all end .

[FISHY1118]

Regardless of whether Jack was BS man or not, I just think that the location of Berner St was a riskier proposition than that of Mitre Square.

He would have been aware that any of the club members could pop outside at any moment.

Perhaps a noise from inside the club spooked him and he thought better of getting down to the mutilations.

Pure speculation of course, but that's really all we can do!

Re BS man as Jack, I'm on the fence (as usual!!), but on balance I'm slightly inclined to agree with you.

Thanks for that Mrs D , one might say Berner st , Mitre Square , Hanbury st, were indeen all very risky

[FISHY1118]

Hi Fishy,

Blackwell's statement regarding time that you show is the report of the inquest by the Daily Telegraph. In other publications it was reported differently - Morning Advertiser 3 Oct: I do not think the deceased could have been dead more than twenty minutes, or at the most half an hour when I saw her. Dr's time of death was at best an estimate

In 1888 clock times were not synchronised and could easily be at variance by 10 minutes or more, despite their being quoted as "exactly". There were three men known to have been in Stride's immediate vicinity around the time of her death - BSMan, Pipeman and Parcelman, plus men in the club. The police at the time thought that the killer had been interrupted by Diemshitz but it could just as well been by approaching voices in the club kitchen.

No-one knows what happened between the Schwartz sighting and the Diemshitz discovery, so your conjecture is a good as anyone's.

Cheers, George

Hi George , In strides case i think the time factor isnt such a big issue for obvious reasons, she was seen alive at 12.45 and found dead at 1.00. Im fairly sure Dr Blackwell got it right with his testimony at the inquest , bedsides if you use the argument with 'Times '' [esp being 10 mins out either side] in all the murders then youd have a different set of witness statements all together.

However your second point beckons another question , being that Diemschutz did in fact discover the the body at 1.00 am we have to assume that no one else went into the yard to either see the murder taking place or discover the body ,so if the killer thought that he would be disturbed or heard some noise of some sort that spooked him and decided to run, Why did he not run during the Chapman murder when Cadousch came out of his house, and all the residents who lived at no 29 Hanbury st that may have at anytime come out to start their day or use the Loo at 5.30 5.45 when it was gettin into if not already daylight hour . ? Of course we may never know the reason why he did what he did ,but after Hanbury st , Berner st would surley have been a walk in the park .

I just dont think Strides murder was a JtR kill , i think B.M man quickly cut her throat and took off very fast... straight away. .

Just a foot note on B.S man , if his intention was all along to kill Stride , why was he trying to drag her into the street in front of two witnesses ??? Even better, if he was the Ripper where was he trying to take to her ?????? B.S man makes no sense as Jack the Ripper, but as sure as eggs he killed Stride.

[erobitha]

All based on a testimony of a man who has never been proven to exist.

No record exists of Israel Schwartz. The man who walked into give his statement to Abberline giving this name cannot be found in any record. Yet somehow a journalist in The Star found him (and his interpreter was home as well which was a tad fortunate). Swanson didn't have the right address. Who really was he and why should we believe him if we can't even find him? How do we know this is not a false statement?

I will say it again. Take Israel Schwartz out of the equation with all the things he supposedly saw and the timings. Then see how the scene plays out - it makes much more sense.

[Ms Diddles]

Regardless of whether Jack was BS man or not, I just think that the location of Berner St was a riskier proposition than that of Mitre Square.

He would have been aware that any of the club members could pop outside at any moment.

Perhaps a noise from inside the club spooked him and he thought better of getting down to the mutilations.

Pure speculation of course, but that's really all we can do!

Re BS man as Jack, I'm on the fence (as usual!!), but on balance I'm slightly inclined to agree with you.

[GBinOz]

Dr Blackwell . ''I consulted my watch on my arrival, and it was 1.16 a.m''[Coroner] Did you form any opinion as to how long the deceased had been dead? - From twenty minutes to half an hour when I arrived

Hi Fishy,

Blackwell's statement regarding time that you show is the report of the inquest by the Daily Telegraph. In other publications it was reported differently - Morning Advertiser 3 Oct: I do not think the deceased could have been dead more than twenty minutes, or at the most half an hour when I saw her. Dr's time of death was at best an estimate

In 1888 clock times were not synchronised and could easily be at variance by 10 minutes or more, despite their being quoted as "exactly". There were three men known to have been in Stride's immediate vicinity around the time of her death - BSMan, Pipeman and Parcelman, plus men in the club. The police at the time thought that the killer had been interrupted by Diemshitz but it could just as well been by approaching voices in the club kitchen.

No-one knows what happened between the Schwartz sighting and the Diemshitz discovery, so your conjecture is a good as anyone's.

Cheers, George

[FISHY1118]

Schwartz statement claims, [and its been done to death as to its accuracy so i need not go there] he saw B.S Man attack Stride and pull her to the ground at 12.45am if we leave a 2-3 minute say to 12.48am for her murder , [if B.S is the killer] why didnt he mutilate her the same way he did Eddowes ?

Eddowes injuries were all over and done with in less than 5-7 minutes ,so with 10-12 mins before Diemschutz drove his cart into the yard ,and the killer had know way of knowing that Diemschutz would do this , there was ample time for mutilations to take place .

Dr Blackwell . ''I consulted my watch on my arrival, and it was 1.16 a.m''[Coroner] Did you form any opinion as to how long the deceased had been dead? - From twenty minutes to half an hour when I arrived

So if B.S man isnt Jack the Ripper and he just assaulted Stride and left [as some would claim it was a Domestic Incident ] then someone else would then have to step up after B.S, Schwartz, and Pipeman had moved on. As some would claim a '' Mysteryious Phantom'' Lurking/watching the whole event unfold in the shadows ready to strike once they left .

Now the Phantom Lurker aka JtR has to get to Stride in a matter of minutes to kill her before 12.50am still leaving time for a series of mutilations , which going agaisnt his M.O he decline to demonstrate before the discovery of Strides body at 1.00am by Diemschutz [ Note Diemschutz words ''Exactly'' 1.00am]

My conclusion/opinion B.S man killed Stride but wasnt Jack the Ripper , and JtR did not enter the yard to kill Stride after B.S left the scene.