Why No Stride Mutilations ?

[c.d.]

Hello Jeff,

A very well thought out and I must say unbiased post by you. I would only add a couple of things. Whitechapel was a rough place and I have to believe that such events as Stride encountering the B.S. man were not an uncommon event. But in questioning Schwartz, I have to think the first order of business was to try to determine whether Schwartz saw a murder or just a street hassle. So the following questions were most likely asked. Was Stride on the ground or was she standing when you left the scene? Did you see that the B.S. man had a knife in his hand? Did you see Stride with her hand to her throat? Did you see any blood? Since Swanson allows for the possibility of another killer other than the B.S. man, it seems reasonable to assume that Schwartz told him that as far as he could tell Stride was still alive when he left.

Stride being thrown to the ground and then making her way to into the yard to seek help is reasonable but is also time consuming. I would hope that the B.S. man would have considered the possibility that Schwartz and/or the Pipeman were on their way to finding a P.C. So killing her at this point has always struck me as odd.

If she did not have the cachous in her hand when thrown to the ground, and fearing for her life she is headed to the apparent safety of the club, would she really say to herself now would be a good time for a cachous. Seems unlikely. To me, the cachous in her hand indicate she was at ease at the moment. I don't see that with the possibility of the B.S. man still lurking around.

c.d.

[JeffHamm]

While I agree that c.d. raises some possibilities that warrant consideration, I'm of the view that we have to always keep in mind that after Schwartz leaves the scene we enter a void of information. We do not know what events transpire between B.S. and Stride from that point onwards. I accept that we can speculate on things, but in the end, we have to be careful not to presume our speculations are what actually happened.

What I mean is, let's for a moment consider the scenario where B.S. kills Stride (whether or not he's JtR is immaterial right now). Schwartz sees Stride go to ground, apparently from being thrown by B.S., and she yells out three times, if not very loudly. After that, Schwartz leaves the scene and he doesn't say he saw her get up. That doesn't mean that B.S. must have dragged her into the ally at that point, she may very well have got back up to her feet, and some amount of time can pass, probably involving words of a not so friendly nature. Given Stride's location, I think it reasonable to assume she is aware of the entrance to the club down the alley, and so it is possible at some point she then decides to disengage from B.S. and heads to the club door to enter there to seek refuge as she knows there are people in the club due to the singing. Given the doctor's interpretation that he scarf was grabbed and pulled, when Stride heads towards the door, and so is now in the alley (and maybe at that point she's retrieved her cachous from where ever she normally kept them). B.S., at that point, even angrier now that she's dismissed him, grabs her scarf, surprising her, she goes down, and he cuts her throat.

In other words, there is nothing in the evidence that requires that B.S. gets Stride into the alley immediately after she's gone to the ground as per Schwartz (and the killed by another hypothesis requires that there be some time between those events). We just don't know what transpired, and while it may seem odd to suggest she stuck around and argued with B.S. after that initial throwing to the ground, given she doesn't yell very loudly, there's nothing to suggest she was terrified either (so really, nothing to suggest she would necessarily flee in any sort of panic).

I do consider it possible that B.S. leaves and someone else comes along, we can't rule that out, but I don't think the cachous, or anything else, necessarily rules out B.S. either. Yes, we can speculate scenarios that don't work for B.S., but just because we can imagine some ways that don't work for B.S. doesn't mean we've ruled him out - we've only ruled out those particular lines of events. To rule out B.S. we would have to show there is no possible way it could be him, and I don't think we can do that based upon the presence of the cachous in her hand. I think c.d.'s argument that she couldn't have been holding them the whole time is fair enough, but we do not know she was holding them when he throws her down. So all that is required is for her to get up, and for things to unfold such that she retrieves the cachous after that point and heads into the ally. It doesn't mean she headed in company with B.S., she may have been separating from him, and he grabs her scarf when she does so.

No, I'm not suggesting that must be what happened. It's just another hypothesis among many, but it is one that keeps B.S. in consideration, and I don't see how changing B.S. to someone else makes it work better since the "someone else" hypothesis is more or less what I described, the one difference being that the someone else version usually has Stride entering the alley in willing company with her attacker, but that's an assumption we make, not a fact drawn from the evidence.

- Jeff

[Sunny Delight]

Schwartz did not say pushed he did say thrown so I am in error. Although I don't see a huge distinction between the two words thrown does seem to be the stronger of the two. But of course whatever word he used was a translation. We also have no idea of the B.S. man's intent. He might have thrown her a little harder than he intended since he apparently had been drinking. We also don't know the role Stride played in all this.

Yes, it was an assault. It also would have been an assault if he had simply walked by and pinched her butt so we need to be careful with that word as it is very loaded.

Even though it was an assault I can't imagine if the B.S. man had walked away that Stride would have run to police headquarters demanding to speak to Abberline telling him she had been thrown to the ground while being out on the street late at night by herself. I also can't imagine Abberline responding " well dammit, that tears it!. No woman in Whitechapel is going to be thrown to the ground on my watch. Drop all other investigations. We have to catch this guy."

c.d.

Throwing someone to the floor is an aggressive act. Pushing is less aggressive. I agree we don't know B.S man's motive or intent, we can only go on what Schwartz said he witnessed. His description is seemingly that of an assault. It is a loaded word I agree- it may have been a struggle although again what Schwartz describes is fairly one sided.

Indeed, I dare say assaults like this were commonplace. Abberline I am quite sure would have been totally disinterested in what appears on the surface to have been common assault. What changes things is that within 15 minutes of this assault taking place Elizabeth Stride is found dead at the same spot with her throat cut. Cut in an identical manner to other Ripper victims. We can't rule out that with a 15 minute lag Stride didn't meet someone else. In my view it is unlikely. In my opinion the Ripper that night was seen in the vicinity of his crimes twice- once at Berner Street and once at the entrance to Church Passage.

I was however reading about the Yorkshire Ripper. It was interesting. One of his victims was seen in Leeds City centre banging on the roof of a car and shouting expletives at the driver. On the face of it had someone seen this they would have assumed when she was found dead it was connected. It wasn't. Peter Sutcliffe was 100 yards away watching and as the woman began walking away he pulled his car up, propositioned and she got in- leading to her death. So of course 15 minutes is enough time for JTR if he was lurking to strike. So we have to be open to the possibility. I wouldn't subscribe to the view that is what happened but I wouldn't rule it out either.

[c.d.]

Schwartz does not say pushed. He said she was thrown to the ground. Now it could well be that he misinterpreted what he saw and indeed Stride was either pulling away or even slipped. However Schwartz used the word thrown. Trying to throw someone to the ground is not easy and would take a fair degree of force. Not excessive force I admit but certainly a fair degree. You keep using the word 'pushing' which is different to 'throwing'. Schwartz to my mind describes an assault.

Schwartz did not say pushed he did say thrown so I am in error. Although I don't see a huge distinction between the two words thrown does seem to be the stronger of the two. But of course whatever word he used was a translation. We also have no idea of the B.S. man's intent. He might have thrown her a little harder than he intended since he apparently had been drinking. We also don't know the role Stride played in all this.

Yes, it was an assault. It also would have been an assault if he had simply walked by and pinched her butt so we need to be careful with that word as it is very loaded.

Even though it was an assault I can't imagine if the B.S. man had walked away that Stride would have run to police headquarters demanding to speak to Abberline telling him she had been thrown to the ground while being out on the street late at night by herself. I also can't imagine Abberline responding " well dammit, that tears it!. No woman in Whitechapel is going to be thrown to the ground on my watch. Drop all other investigations. We have to catch this guy."

c.d.

[Sunny Delight]

Hello Sunny,

Let's assume that Stride was killed by a very angry, pissed off B.S. Man and what Schwartz saw was a vicious attack culminating in her death. It would seem that he was so angry that he threatens Schwartz and doesn't give a rats ass that he has been seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man but goes on to kill her anyway. Do you think it is at all strange or out of the ordinary that no one hears any argument or raised voices after Schwartz bolts the scene? Is it at all strange or out of the ordinary that she is not slapped around (no evidence of blows to the face)? Is it at all strange or out of the ordinary that there is only a single cut to the throat and no cuts at all to rest of the body? Is it at all strange or out of the ordinary that her clothes are not torn with all that went on? Is it at all strange or out of the ordinary that she managed to hold on to the cachous with all this manhandling?

Or do you think all of the above are consistent with an attack by a man so angry that he cares not that he has been seen?

c.d.

Well again you use terminology such as 'angry' and 'pissed off' which elicits a view of a man wildly out of control. I don't see it that way. I think he was controlled and focused. He had a desire and was determined to meet that desire. No I actually don't see much strange in much of what you mention. If as I believe Schwartz witnessed the beginning of the attack leading to Stride's death and after throwing Stride to the ground B.S man grabbed her scarf from behind pulling it tight then things make perfect sense.

[Sunny Delight]

Ok. She was turned around and pushed. But we have no idea of the amount of force used or the actual intent behind it. It is certainly conceivable that Stride simply tried to pull away and fell. We don't know. Either way turning someone around and pushing them is hardly a violent assault.

c.d.

Schwartz does not say pushed. He said she was thrown to the ground. Now it could well be that he misinterpreted what he saw and indeed Stride was either pulling away or even slipped. However Schwartz used the word thrown. Trying to throw someone to the ground is not easy and would take a fair degree of force. Not excessive force I admit but certainly a fair degree. You keep using the word 'pushing' which is different to 'throwing'. Schwartz to my mind describes an assault.

[c.d.]

Hello Sunny,

Let's assume that Stride was killed by a very angry, pissed off B.S. Man and what Schwartz saw was a vicious attack culminating in her death. It would seem that he was so angry that he threatens Schwartz and doesn't give a rats ass that he has been seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man but goes on to kill her anyway. Do you think it is at all strange or out of the ordinary that no one hears any argument or raised voices after Schwartz bolts the scene? Is it at all strange or out of the ordinary that she is not slapped around (no evidence of blows to the face)? Is it at all strange or out of the ordinary that there is only a single cut to the throat and no cuts at all to rest of the body? Is it at all strange or out of the ordinary that her clothes are not torn with all that went on? Is it at all strange or out of the ordinary that she managed to hold on to the cachous with all this manhandling?

Or do you think all of the above are consistent with an attack by a man so angry that he cares not that he has been seen?

c.d.

[c.d.]

It is also possible that Stride herself was the aggressor in this whole incident. In the thread I started "A Modern Day B.S. Man/Stride Encounter" that was actually the case. The woman was the aggressor and the guy pushed her away to free himself from her. I only knew this because they were speaking English. But imagine me trying to describe the incident if the woman had fallen after being pushed and me not understanding English.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Well actually Schwartz said B.S man turned Stride around and threw her to the ground. Have you ever tried to physically turn someone around and throw them to the ground? I imagine it would take quite a bit of force. Obviously this guy was very physically strong. If was quite a bit more than merely witnessing someone being pushed to the ground.

Ok. She was turned around and pushed. But we have no idea of the amount of force used or the actual intent behind it. It is certainly conceivable that Stride simply tried to pull away and fell. We don't know. Either way turning someone around and pushing them is hardly a violent assault.

c.d.

[Sunny Delight]

Hello Fishy,

And what did this vicious assault consist of? She was pushed to the ground that's it.

Was it a "Phantom Killer" or "Unseen Ghost" that killed Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly? Or someone of flesh and blood?

Just because event "A" preceded event "B" it doesn't necessarily mean that event "A" caused event "B."

And don't forget that Chief Inspector Donald Swanson, who was there at the time and had all of the facts at his disposal, allowed for the possibility of a killer other than the B.S. man. Go figure.

c.d.

Well actually Schwartz said B.S man turned Stride around and threw her to the ground. Have you ever tried to physically turn someone around and throw them to the ground? I imagine it would take quite a bit of force. Obviously this guy was very physically strong. If was quite a bit more than merely witnessing someone being pushed to the ground.

[c.d.]

Whos the more likely to have been Strides killer ?, B.S man who was seen assaulting Stride by a witness 15 mins befor he body was discovered . Or an unseen ghost .

I cant for the life of me think why so much importants is given to a Phantom killer when we have a much more likely killer in B.S man .Go Figure.

Hello Fishy,

And what did this vicious assault consist of? She was pushed to the ground that's it.

Was it a "Phantom Killer" or "Unseen Ghost" that killed Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly? Or someone of flesh and blood?

Just because event "A" preceded event "B" it doesn't necessarily mean that event "A" caused event "B."

And don't forget that Chief Inspector Donald Swanson, who was there at the time and had all of the facts at his disposal, allowed for the possibility of a killer other than the B.S. man. Go figure.

c.d.

[Sunny Delight]

Hello Sunny,

If Stride is pulled into the yard by her scarf, wouldn't her natural reaction be to try and get her hand in between the scarf and her neck to pull it away? If so, doesn't that require an open hand? And if her hand were open, wouldn't the cachous have spilled out?

c.d.

Stride was strangled by the scarf pulled tight. The cachous remained in her hand. No matter who the culprit was that question will always remain, How did someone manage to subdue her and cut her throat without the cachous falling out of her hand? I don't neccessarily see how that can rule out B.S man for instance but no one else?

[FISHY1118]

No, George. I think Jack killed her and I don't think he was the B.S. man or the Parcelman. I have no idea where Jack might have been during the Schwartz incident but he would have had to have been close by. I have no way of knowing whether he might have witnessed the incident with Stride and the B.S. man.

c.d.

Whos the more likely to have been Strides killer ?, B.S man who was seen assaulting Stride by a witness 15 mins befor he body was discovered . Or an unseen ghost .

I cant for the life of me think why so much importants is given to a Phantom killer when we have a much more likely killer in B.S man .Go Figure.

[c.d.]

Hi c.d.

Would I be right in inferring that you are advocating Parcelman as the culprit? If so, what is your hypothesis as to his whereabouts during the Schwartz incident?

Cheers, George

No, George. I think Jack killed her and I don't think he was the B.S. man or the Parcelman. I have no idea where Jack might have been during the Schwartz incident but he would have had to have been close by. I have no way of knowing whether he might have witnessed the incident with Stride and the B.S. man.

c.d.

[FISHY1118]

Fishy,

The fact is we don't know which clocks were out, or by how much, or in which direction. We do know that guessing elapsed time from seeing an unsynchronised clock does not produce an accurate to the minute ( or ten minute) time stamp.

Cheers, George

So in the end Schwartz , Eagle, Diemschutz Blackwell , were just as likely to be right or wrong with there times .

As were Fanny Mortimer , Lave , P.C lamb . James Brown .etc etc