Why No Stride Mutilations ?

[GBinOz]

Is it a historical fact the every clock in whitechapel was out by 10/15 mins or just the ones we want to be out .? That would be silly wouldnt it ?

Fishy,

The fact is we don't know which clocks were out, or by how much, or in which direction. We do know that guessing elapsed time from seeing an unsynchronised clock does not produce an accurate to the minute ( or ten minute) time stamp.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

The cachous and lack of a struggle indicate that Stride's guard was down when she was killed. Slipping off into the privacy of the yard with a lover/punter dovetails perfectly with the forensic evidence. A relaxed Stride going into the yard with her assailant or a rando after being roughed up, frankly doesn't.

Yep, you're right on the money there, Harry. Her guard being down is key and I think it eliminates B.S. man as her killer.

c.d.

Hi c.d.

Would I be right in inferring that you are advocating Parcelman as the culprit? If so, what is your hypothesis as to his whereabouts during the Schwartz incident?

Cheers, George

[c.d.]

Hello Sunny,

If Stride is pulled into the yard by her scarf, wouldn't her natural reaction be to try and get her hand in between the scarf and her neck to pull it away? If so, doesn't that require an open hand? And if her hand were open, wouldn't the cachous have spilled out?

c.d.

[Aethelwulf]

Yes he pulls her into the yard by the scarf. She may have been in the process of getting up when B.S man did this. Stride is taken completely by suprise. Something spooked B.S man into fleeing. Did he think better of it? Something happened though to make him leave without performing mutilation. He has just been involved minutes before in an altercation with Stride in full view of two witnesses? Does that spook him into fleeing? Is it the noise from the club? Is it hearing something at the side entrance? Is it just a combination of being seen in an altercation, noise from the club, poor location. He just thinks better of it and flees shortly before Mortimer returns to her door and Goldstein passes a few minutes later?

the path of least resistance through this mess suggests BS man finished what he started. Anything else is a lot less likely IMO. How it was done, who knows. we can't be sure Schwartz's interpretation was spot on - he saw a scuffle with the some 'not very loud' screams. perhaps these two were known to each other in some way and stride was persuaded to go into the yard. I can't help thinking if BS man was a total stranger she would have been screaming very loudly. Or perhaps she went in there alone and he crept up on her.

As for pipe man the shining knight, this seems highly unlikely to me. BS man caused a disturbance with stride and added to this with his Lipski shout. Attention has been drawn to this area, other people may be looking, police might arrive. If pipe man was the ripper I think he would have been out of there. However, I can see it much more likely that BS man finished what he started before leaving.

[Sunny Delight]

Hello Sunny,

Except that Stride is not killed where she was seen by Schwartz. He had to get her back into the yard. Could she have gone voluntarily? Yes, but I think that is unlikely. If he had to force her and she is fighting for her life, I don't see the cachous surviving that.

Second thoughts about mutilating the body because of a returning P.C.? But if he is being that rational why kill her in the first place after being seen? And if he was so angry that he just didn't care why stop at just a cut to the throat? Why not multiple stabs to the body?

c.d.

Yes he pulls her into the yard by the scarf. She may have been in the process of getting up when B.S man did this. Stride is taken completely by suprise. Something spooked B.S man into fleeing. Did he think better of it? Something happened though to make him leave without performing mutilation. He has just been involved minutes before in an altercation with Stride in full view of two witnesses? Does that spook him into fleeing? Is it the noise from the club? Is it hearing something at the side entrance? Is it just a combination of being seen in an altercation, noise from the club, poor location. He just thinks better of it and flees shortly before Mortimer returns to her door and Goldstein passes a few minutes later?

[c.d.]

I think it more likely B.S man attacks Stride almost immediately after Schwartz and Pipeman run off. Stride may have managed to keep hold of the Cachous during the assault witnessed by Schwartz. According to Schwartz B.S man turned Stride around and threw her to the ground. With her back to him he immediately reaches for the scarf and pulls it tight. Stride has little time to think or compose herself before the attack. It is so sudden she freezes and loses consciousness fairly quickly.

B.S man spooked by the Schwartz and Pipeman incident has second thoughts about mutilating the body. They could be returning with a Policeman for all he knew. That would spook him into thinking better of it rather than have a Policeman happen onto the scene. Just a thought for possible scenario. The killer escapes up Berner Street, composes himself and then sets off for Whitechapel Road probably intentionally crossing into City Police territory- he was likely expecting considerable Police panic within Whitechapel. Then he meets and kills Eddowes.

Hello Sunny,

Except that Stride is not killed where she was seen by Schwartz. He had to get her back into the yard. Could she have gone voluntarily? Yes, but I think that is unlikely. If he had to force her and she is fighting for her life, I don't see the cachous surviving that.

Second thoughts about mutilating the body because of a returning P.C.? But if he is being that rational why kill her in the first place after being seen? And if he was so angry that he just didn't care why stop at just a cut to the throat? Why not multiple stabs to the body?

c.d.

[c.d.]

The cachous and lack of a struggle indicate that Stride's guard was down when she was killed. Slipping off into the privacy of the yard with a lover/punter dovetails perfectly with the forensic evidence. A relaxed Stride going into the yard with her assailant or a rando after being roughed up, frankly doesn't.

Yep, you're right on the money there, Harry. Her guard being down is key and I think it eliminates B.S. man as her killer.

c.d.

[Sunny Delight]

I've seen several theories posited to reconcile Schwarz's account, and they're all problematic imo.

Pipeman as the good samaritan conveniently popping up to kill Stride, or BS Man sneaking behind Stride in the yard. None of them wash with me.

The cachous and lack of a struggle indicate that Stride's guard was down when she was killed. Slipping off into the privacy of the yard with a lover/punter dovetails perfectly with the forensic evidence. A relaxed Stride going into the yard with her assailant or a rando after being roughed up, frankly doesn't.

I think it more likely B.S man attacks Stride almost immediately after Schwartz and Pipeman run off. Stride may have managed to keep hold of the Cachous during the assault witnessed by Schwartz. According to Schwartz B.S man turned Stride around and threw her to the ground. With her back to him he immediately reaches for the scarf and pulls it tight. Stride has little time to think or compose herself before the attack. It is so sudden she freezes and loses consciousness fairly quickly.

B.S man spooked by the Schwartz and Pipeman incident has second thoughts about mutilating the body. They could be returning with a Policeman for all he knew. That would spook him into thinking better of it rather than have a Policeman happen onto the scene. Just a thought for possible scenario. The killer escapes up Berner Street, composes himself and then sets off for Whitechapel Road probably intentionally crossing into City Police territory- he was likely expecting considerable Police panic within Whitechapel. Then he meets and kills Eddowes.

[Harry D]

Just from the position of Stride in yard and the fact that she was still holding those cachous, (either in the process of taking one herself, possibly before attempting to kiss her killer or of offering him one) eliminates BS man for me at least. I know its tight on timings but someone else must have made an appearance on the scene. Again for me pipe man is the obvious choice here. Questioning the timing by Herlock Sholmes has made this very interesting for me and something I have never thought about. If the BS man incident happened just 10 minutes early this really opens the door for another person, not only to make an appearance but to ingratiate himself a little bit with Stride before killing her. Very interesting indeed.

I've seen several theories posited to reconcile Schwarz's account, and they're all problematic imo.

Pipeman as the good samaritan conveniently popping up to kill Stride, or BS Man sneaking behind Stride in the yard. None of them wash with me.

The cachous and lack of a struggle indicate that Stride's guard was down when she was killed. Slipping off into the privacy of the yard with a lover/punter dovetails perfectly with the forensic evidence. A relaxed Stride going into the yard with her assailant or a rando after being roughed up, frankly doesn't.

[Herlock Sholmes]

We can’t tie times down to exact times. This is a fact that is beyond argument. I really can’t understand the resistance to the blindingly obvious?

[Losmandris]

Hi Tristan,

I would suggest you read post #2 here:
https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-...ime#post120389

Chris McKay is an authority on historical timekeeping, and his dissertation puts JtR times into perspective.

Cheers, George

I shall! Thanks George.

[FISHY1118]

It is your prerogative to consider historical facts "silly". That doesn't alter their validity as facts. Non of your "plausibles" are plausible because he told the coroner they didn't happen.

Unfortunately we don't have the original inquest transcripts and are dependant on the individual press reports of the proceedings, which vary considerably. You are probably looking at the Daily Telegraph report which is quoted on casebook. I think it is in the Times report that says he didn't look at the clock, and in another report (can't recall which newspaper at the moment) the coroner asks him how he determined time and he answered as I detailed above. You should note that he didn't return to his home (and look at his clock) before or after dropping off his girlfriend.

Is it a historical fact the every clock in whitechapel was out by 10/15 mins or just the ones we want to be out .? That would be silly wouldnt it ?

SO it comes down to which report one chooses to use , bit like Richardson /Inspecter Chandler at 29 hanbury st ,did he sit on the step and cut the leather from his boot or didnt he ,you tell me ?

[GBinOz]

His clock at home when he left to come back to the club , the clock inside the workers club when he walked through the door at 12.41am , he may even asked a member for the time on his arrival back at the club , all very plausable. And more than likely that eagle new what time it was. To suggest he was 10/ 15 mins out because back in 1888 somehow all people had access to was an unsynchonised bell tower clock!! , is just silly in my opinion. The adjustment in thinking need to be given to people back in 1888 that they werent idiots when knowing what time it was .

''He said at the inquest that he didn't look at the clock in the club''

i dont see this at his inquest george .


Lets say we put eagle back to 12.30 what then does that do with all the other times stated from all the witnesses where stride is concerned .?

It is your prerogative to consider historical facts "silly". That doesn't alter their validity as facts. Non of your "plausibles" are plausible because he told the coroner they didn't happen.

Unfortunately we don't have the original inquest transcripts and are dependant on the individual press reports of the proceedings, which vary considerably. You are probably looking at the Daily Telegraph report which is quoted on casebook. I think it is in the Times report that says he didn't look at the clock, and in another report (can't recall which newspaper at the moment) the coroner asks him how he determined time and he answered as I detailed above. You should note that he didn't return to his home (and look at his clock) before or after dropping off his girlfriend.

All the times quoted were based on different clock syncs, except the one's that were guessed which included estimate errors with the original sync errors. Read the dissertation I linked for Tristan, and work with the facts. Sequences are better than clock times.

[GBinOz]

Ok. So that makes it even more interesting still. I have to say I certainly read the statement FISHY1118 shared with my 21st century hat on, taking the timings as precise but of course that is not necessarily the case. Of course an extra 10 minutes is not crucial for someone else to appear on the scene after the BS incident but it certainly helps.

Hi Tristan,

I would suggest you read post #2 here:

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-crime-scenes/8950-a-matter-of-timing-berner-street-witness-time#post120389

Chris McKay is an authority on historical timekeeping, and his dissertation puts JtR times into perspective.

Cheers, George

[FISHY1118]

Fishy, how did Eagle know what time it was? He said at the inquest that he didn't look at the clock in the club, but calculated his times from when he left home to go to the club and then take his girlfriend home and return. In other words he was guessing and could have been out by ten, or even twenty minutes. You need to adjust your thinking out of the computer age back to an era when time was determined by guessing how many minutes had passed since you last saw the unsynchronised clock in a bell tower. To his credit, Herlock has come to appreciate this factor and has adjusted his thinking accordingly.

Cheers, George

His clock at home when he left to come back to the club , the clock inside the workers club when he walked through the door at 12.41am , he may even asked a member for the time on his arrival back at the club , all very plausable. And more than likely that eagle new what time it was. To suggest he was 10/ 15 mins out because back in 1888 somehow all people had access to was an unsynchonised bell tower clock!! , is just silly in my opinion. The adjustment in thinking need to be given to people back in 1888 that they werent idiots when knowing what time it was .

''He said at the inquest that he didn't look at the clock in the club''

i dont see this at his inquest george .


Lets say we put eagle back to 12.30 what then does that do with all the other times stated from all the witnesses where stride is concerned .?