Where is Liz Stride?

[lynn cates]

Behold, Dimshits cometh.

Hello DLDW.

When would you suggest Dimshits arrived?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

time line

Hello (again) CD. Thanks.

"As to where Liz was, I think somebody earlier mentioned that maybe she was back in the yard servicing the BS man."

Oh, please.

"I am thinking oral sex here since there was no evidence of connection."

Perhaps you are thinking "oral sex" to save an untenable theory?

"He precedes Liz out of the yard who is delayed trying to freshen up. He then turns back. . ."

Considering how far Schwartz tailed him, surely a delayed reaction?

". . . and asks Liz to come with him for a drink. She refuses."

After all that time, supposedly in pubs that night, now she refuses? Very well. But where were they to drink? Weren't the pubs all closed?

"Drunk and angered. . ."

You forgot the malaise after his interlude with Liz.

". . . he tries to pull her with him. Enter Schwartz."

And the lads who were in the yard at 12.40 respectfully averted their gaze? OK, just as you wish.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

non causa pro causa

Hello CD. Thanks.

"I think it is also an excellent reason to think that there was a BS man and that he was only a minor player who was on the stage for only a brief moment."

Brief? What Schwartz described (truly, or otherwise) surely took some time. Add to that his finally getting alone with Liz, calming her, getting her into the yard and with the cachous, killing her, etc, well . . .

"Where was Jack? I have to imagine that he was nearby. . . "

Well, if there was a "Jack" and he killed Liz, then "nearby" seems correct.

". . .and that possibly he witnessed the whole thing."

Of course, not observed by Schwartz.

"But Jack had to be somewhere on the planet. . . ."

If he existed, obviously.

"Isn't there a name for the fallacy that if A precedes B then A caused B or something to that effect?"

There is indeed. It is called, "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc." It is a species of non causa pro causa. I think of this latter fallacy everytime I see a post about Annie's throat was cut by "Jack," therefore Liz's throat was cut by Jack."

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

DRoy

Schwartz on the other hand couldn't speak English, nobody could verify what he 'meant' to say,

The Police at Leman St had a plethora of translator`s available to them. A number of translators lived within a few yards of the Police station on Leman St and would have been called upon when a police statement had to be made.
I can`t imagine for one minute that the Police would sit opposite Schwartz and Wess (?) and just accept everything they were been told.

and nobody can verify he was there.

Well. the details of his statement fit all the other statements available, as the fruits of this thread show.
In fact, the screams Schwartz heard agree with the squeals the author of the Saucy Jack postcard boasted of. The postcard arrived on Mon, 1st Oct and Schwartz gave his statement on Sun 30th Sept, and was mentioned in the press on the 1st Oct.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

I've just been reviewing the witness statements provided on this website. I'm gettin a feeling that Dimschits' arrival at Dutfield's Yard may not have been quite so close to 1am as he stated. May explain somethings. Muddle others. Standard procedure for this case. Just throwing it out there.

[DRoy]

c.d.

I'm not saying I agree with Michael's theory that Schwartz was trying to steer suspicion away from the club. I'm not even necessarily saying Schwartz is lying. What I've said is he could have been just as mistaken about the time as anyone could have been, there could have been things misinterpreted or lost in translation between Schwartz, the interpreter and the note taker, etc.

Mortimer lived in that house for at least seven years before Liz's murder. She knew the sounds, she would have recognized many of the people that went to the club and those that passed her house often. She at least witnessed Goldstein who we know was there.

Schwartz on the other hand couldn't speak English, nobody could verify what he 'meant' to say, and nobody can verify he was there.

This is just observation, not a theory of mine.

Cheers
DRoy

[c.d.]

As to where Liz was, I think somebody earlier mentioned that maybe she was back in the yard servicing the BS man. I am thinking oral sex here since there was no evidence of connection. He precedes Liz out of the yard who is delayed trying to freshen up. He then turns back and asks Liz to come with him for a drink. She refuses. Drunk and angered he tries to pull her with him. Enter Schwartz.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello Lynn,

I think it is also an excellent reason to think that there was a BS man and that he was only a minor player who was on the stage for only a brief moment.

Where was Jack? I have to imagine that he was nearby and that possibly he witnessed the whole thing. But Jack had to be somewhere on the planet and he had no control over what preceeded his entrance on stage.

Isn't there a name for the fallacy that if A precedes B then A caused B or something to that effect?

c.d.

[lynn cates]

The Invisible Man

Hello CD. Thanks.

Your first paragraph is an EXCELLENT reason not to believe--in BS man.

OK. Liz is with a client. Jack. And where is he whilst the fracas with BS is supposed to be happening?

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello Lynn,

Ah, if it were only that simple. The BS man as Liz's killer has a ton of red flags (for me, anyway) not the least of which is the old cachous problem. Again, if Liz had them in her hand and caught herself with her hands in order to break her fall (which is natural) why didn't they they scatter on the ground since they were wrapped in tissue? The obvious answer would be that she didn't have them in her hand at the time. So are we to believe that after being the victim of a brutal assault and seeing the BS man threaten Schwartz she calmly went off with him and decided this would be a good time to freshen her breath at which point she took out the cachous?

I think the BS man was just a drunk who hassled her a bit and then went on his way. Liz then took out the cachous because she was with a client and I think that client was Jack.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

dum spiro, spero

Hello CD. I honestly hope you are correct. If Schwartz is truthful, then BS killed Liz. End of the "Jack" non-sense.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

What reason would Schwartz have to lie? I much prefer to believe that he honestly related what he THOUGHT he saw which was then FILTERED through an interpreter. The whole made up story thing in order to deflect suspicion away from the club is just too complicated for me.

I started a thread some time ago entitled "A Modern Day B.S. Man/Liz Encounter. Anybody witnessing what I saw who did not speak English would have come away with a completely different interpretation of what took place.

c.d.

[DRoy]

Observer,

Mortimer didn't testify and neither did Schwartz. It seems you have no problem accepting his story(?). I've already said it, if Schwartz was believed by the police which it seems he was, and he claims to have witnessed something when Mortimer witnessed nothing, that is why people appreciate him and not her.

Instead of repeating myself, please reread my last post where I talk about Mortimer's hearing.

Does anyone see Schwartz? Nope. BS Man? Nope. Pipeman? Nope. The only person that can vouch for Schwartz's story is Schwartz himself.

Cheers
DRoy

[Observer]

Not forgetting Joseph Lave standing on the pavement from 12:30-12:40, and Morris Eagle who tried the front door at 12:40.
Even if inside for a brief moment, if she can normally hear footsteps outside how come she missed the rumble of iron rims across cobblestones and the clip-clop of hooves coming passed her front window?

Mrs Mortimer may have heard the commotion after the body was discovered but she cannot have been standing on her doorstep for any appreciable length of time.

.

Quite true

Regards

Observer

[Observer]

Observer & Mike,

Why do you have that perception of Mortimer? She said she was standing at her door "nearly the whole time". She didn't say periodically, she didn't say she was baking a pie and she didn't say she was busy swatting flies!

She follows that up by saying she heard commotion outside. Then she says "there was certainly no noise made" when talking about Liz being murdered. If she could be so sure no noise was made then it must be because she would have heard it. In other words, she knows how sound travelled and obviously feels she has great hearing. So great in fact she heard what she said was a policeman's heavy stomp. She heard this from inside her house so even if she was in her house she would have heard Liz scream unless Liz's scream was whispered!

The problem I have with Mortimer is she didn't testify at the inquest. Was she ignored she didn't see Liz or hear BS Man abusing her? Here again, I'd ask the same question as before...

Cheers
DRoy

Hi DRoy

Perhaps the fact that Mrs M did not appear at the inquest tells us that the police themselves were not convinced that she stood at her door for the full half hour 12:30 1:00 a.m. I presume she was questioned by the police on Sunday 1st Oct.

The screams. Someone has already pointed out it's not possible to scream "not very loudly". Isn't it more likely that for some reason Liz Stride merely cried out "not very loudly"? Hence Mrs M did not hear her cries, lets not forget the fact that no one actually heard anything.

What could the reason be for this suppressed cry?

Blind fear could be one reason. Liz Stride would not be the first person to choke so to speak whilst being the victim of violence.

It's possible that one of the club members realised that she was up to no good and ejected her from the entrance to the yard, lets not forget that Schwartz said the man he saw assaulting Stride pulled the woman into the street. Stride realising that she was in the wrong cried out not very loudly. Had she been warned on other occasions by club members not to hang around their premises? If this is the reason, I can't see any member guilty of this act relating the incident to the police considering Liz Stride was found dead on their premises 15 minutes later. Of course the reference to Lipski is a problem in this scenario.

Could Liz Stride have propositioned BS man and Pipeman as they passed her standing in the entrance to Dutfields Yard? Both had had a drink, and BS man takes exception to being propositioned, and throws her into the street in disgust. As Schwartz passes he thinking Schwartz is about to aid Liz Stride and abuses him with name of Lipski. Again Liz Stride would not want to draw attention to herself, and merely cries out not very loudly.

Of course the above scenarios call for Jack to be waiting in ther wings so to speak. He could well have been the man seen with Stride earlier in the evening, deciding it imprudent to kill Stride at that point, due to the fact that he had been sighted by PC Smith.

Regards

Observer