Where is Liz Stride?

[The Good Michael]

No matter how much you believe Schwartz, it is not going to change the fact he didn't testify. Schwartz isn't mentioned in memoirs or anywhere else as being a great witness. Something happened to his story and it wasn't a good thing or else he would have testified. Mortimer didn't testify because she had nothing of value to say, the same can be said of Schwartz.

Mortimer seems to have had nothing of value to say. It was probably because, when compared to other testimony, she came off as clueless. She could have been an attention seeker. Whatever reason, this cannot apply to Schwartz. Schwartz probably didn't testify because he had given all the information he could and logistics with translation and the time it would take to translate back and forth would have made the process unwieldy and would have provided little value. It seems as if all the testimony from all cases provided little value as they were only coroner inquests and gave no new information as far as I can tell

Mike

[Observer]

What? I don't care about Brown's time at all other than to show he said he saw Liz at the same time Schwartz said he did. Strictly adhere? It doesn't matter to me if it was actually 12:42 or 12:47. Admonish you? No, i'm saying not every witness got the time exactly right so there is room for people to have missed other people.

Ehhh??? If the witnesses timings were open to speculation how in the hell do you know Brown saw Stride at the same time as Schwartz! Come on man get a grip. By your reasoning Brown could have been mistaken regarding the hour he saw Stride, as could Schwartz. So how can you rule out Schwartz's account on the grounds that Brown acclaimed to have spotted Stride at the same minute as Schwartz?

Mortimer said she was outside from 12:30, so it isn't according to me. In my opinion she probably actually went outside at around 12:35 since she didn't see Smith. But again, maybe Smith was actually there at 12:33 and Mortimer at 12:34. I've answered your question about Mortimer not seeing Lave or Eagle...she said she saw members of the club, she didn't see anyone passing through the street. Members of the club being Lave and Eagle.

I don't beleive it.

No she did not see members of the club, you're wrong, the only person she saw was Goldstein, passing through the street She did not say that she saw Eagle and Lave. And if she had been on the street at 12:35 she would have seen both Lave and Eagle. I'd be surprised if Mortimer was at her door earlier than 12:50, the footsteps she heard were in all likelyhood those of Eagle returning to the club. And you've yet to point me in the right direction to the press report that mentions Mortimer hearing the cart of Deimschutz returning to the club. One thing is certain she wasn't at her door during the period in which Scwartz saw Stride being assaulted by BS man.

Yes! What would she testify to? Why bring in a witness who saw nothing? No matter how much you believe Schwartz, it is not going to change the fact he didn't testify. Schwartz isn't mentioned in memoirs or anywhere else as being a great witness. Something happened to his story and it wasn't a good thing or else he would have testified. Mortimer didn't testify because she had nothing of value to say, the same can be said of Schwartz.

What would she testify to? Come off it, she went into ther yard and veiwed Stride's body, Spooner was called to the inquest for precisely the same reason. Not all witnesses were called to inquest. Ok, if something happened to Schwartz's story what do you think happened for the police not to call him to inquest? Nobody could contradict his story, certainly not Mortimer, and it remained on the police files.

Regards

Observer

[DRoy]

I didn't say he did. He saw her by the wall of the Board School in Fairclough Street. The point is you use his time of the sighting 12:45 (a five minute increment) to discredit Schwartz, you strictly adhere to that 12:45 timeframe used by Brown, a procedure you admonish me for! No room for manouvre regarding the time here? As I said you want your cake and eat it.

What? I don't care about Brown's time at all other than to show he said he saw Liz at the same time Schwartz said he did. Strictly adhere? It doesn't matter to me if it was actually 12:42 or 12:47. Admonish you? No, i'm saying not every witness got the time exactly right so there is room for people to have missed other people.

Ah, you reaslise your error regarding Eagle then? Lave left the club approx 12:30 returning at approx 12:40. It's obvious therfore that Eagle returned nearer to 12:40 than 12:35. or he would have bumped into Lave. I'd say Lave re-entered the club at 12:39. with Eagle shortly after at 12:40. Put it this way if Eagle stated that he returned at about tewnty to two, I'd say he meant nearer to twenty to two than 12:35. a time when (according to you) Mortimer was at her door. Why didn't Mortimer see Lave and Eagle?

Mortimer said she was outside from 12:30, so it isn't according to me. In my opinion she probably actually went outside at around 12:35 since she didn't see Smith. But again, maybe Smith was actually there at 12:33 and Mortimer at 12:34. I've answered your question about Mortimer not seeing Lave or Eagle...she said she saw members of the club, she didn't see anyone passing through the street. Members of the club being Lave and Eagle.

You're making it up as you're going along mate. So Mortimer was not called to inquest because

a) Goldstein was identified, thus Mortimer's sighting of him was irrelevent

b) Schwartz's statement was not believed by the police, thus he did not appear at inquest. Consequently there was no need for Mortimer to contradict him, she of course maintaining that she stood at her door the whole time. And even if she did momantarily retire indoors during the time of the assault she could still put a spoke in the works of Schwartz's story on the grounds that she did not hear Liz Stride scream.

Yes! What would she testify to? Why bring in a witness who saw nothing? No matter how much you believe Schwartz, it is not going to change the fact he didn't testify. Schwartz isn't mentioned in memoirs or anywhere else as being a great witness. Something happened to his story and it wasn't a good thing or else he would have testified. Mortimer didn't testify because she had nothing of value to say, the same can be said of Schwartz.

Cheers
DRoy

[Observer]

Again, nice try! Brown didn't see Liz in Berner Street.

I didn't say he did. He saw her by the wall of the Board School in Fairclough Street. The point is you use his time of the sighting 12:45 (a five minute increment) to discredit Schwartz, you strictly adhere to that 12:45 timeframe used by Brown, a procedure you admonish me for! No room for manouvre regarding the time here? As I said you want your cake and eat it.

About twenty to one. Did he run into Lave?.

Ah, you reaslise your error regarding Eagle then? Lave left the club approx 12:30 returning at approx 12:40. It's obvious therfore that Eagle returned nearer to 12:40 than 12:35. or he would have bumped into Lave. I'd say Lave re-entered the club at 12:39. with Eagle shortly after at 12:40. Put it this way if Eagle stated that he returned at about tewnty to two, I'd say he meant nearer to twenty to two than 12:35. a time when (according to you) Mortimer was at her door. Why didn't Mortimer see Lave and Eagle?

No it wasn't valuable. Once Goldstein was identified the bag was useless.

You're making it up as you're going along mate. So Mortimer was not called to inquest because

a) Goldstein was identified, thus Mortimer's sighting of him was irrelevent

b) Schwartz's statement was not believed by the police, thus he did not appear at inquest. Consequently there was no need for Mortimer to contradict him, she of course maintaining that she stood at her door the whole time. And even if she did momantarily retire indoors during the time of the assault she could still put a spoke in the works of Schwartz's story on the grounds that she did not hear Liz Stride scream.

Ok mate. Dream on

Regards

Observer

[DRoy]

Hold on, you discount Schwartz's account on the premise that Brown also stated that he saw Stride at 12:45. 12:45 5 minute increment you know!

Again, nice try! Brown didn't see Liz in Berner Street.

Look at the inquest report, Eagle states he ruturned to the club about twenty to one. Why did Mortimer not see him?

About twenty to one. Did he run into Lave?

Lave entered the street, why did Mortimer not see him

Mortimer said she saw people from the club but the only person she saw passing through the street turned out to be Goldstein.

And Mortimer did see someone she saw Goldstein, and she stated he carried a black shiny bag, was this not worthy of inclusion at inquest?

No it wasn't valuable. Once Goldstein was identified the bag was useless.

Cheers
DRoy

[Observer]

Hi Droy

Hold on, you discount Schwartz's account on the premise that Brown also stated that he saw Stride at 12:45. 12:45 5 minute increment you know!

Look at the inquest report, Eagle stated he ruturned to the club about twenty to one.You state 12:35, another 5 minute increment, you must keep away from these 5 minute increments you know. However why did Mortimer not see him?

Lave entered the street, why did Mortimer not see him

And Mortimer did see someone she saw Goldstein, and she stated he carried a black shiny bag, was this not worthy of inclusion at inquest?

Rewgards

Observer

[Wickerman]

If so, Jon, it means that Lawende, Harris and Levy each estimated a significantly different height for Eddowes' companion, the recognition of which is certainly consistent with the psychological research that has been conducted into the reliability of eyewitness descriptions.

Swanson was not wholly convinced, he wrote:
"I understand from City Police the Mr Lawende, one of the men, identified the clothes only of the murdered woman Eddowes, which is a serious drawback to the value of the description of the man".

Levy only said that the man was about 3" taller than the woman?
Lawende was cut short from making his description public, then sequestered away, so only Harris was available to offer an opinion.

Swanson's summary in the Gazette on the 19th?, was the first mention of the Duke St. man as having the appearance of a sailor. Where did this idea come from?

If Lawende could not see the man because the woman stood between them, as he claimed, then where did the detail come from about his appearance?

Swanson also commented:
"...... even Mr Lawende states that he could not identify the man, but also the woman stood with her back to him, with her hand on the man's breast, he could not identify the body mutilated as it was, as that of the woman whose back he had seen, but to the best of his belief the clothing of the deceased, which was black was similar to that worn by the woman whom he had seen, and that was the full extent of his identity."

There's possibly more icing than cake in the description attributed to Lawende. And, as a result it is quite possible the couple were not Eddowes & Co. at Church Passage.

.

[DRoy]

Mortimer stated that she stood at her door from 12:30 though, you're jumping to conclusions advancing her times by 5 minutes. Also Lave advanced into the street, the yard was so dark that he had to grope along the wall to find his way. If he had come out for some fresh air what would be the point of standing in a pitch black yard? He also reported that he saw nothing unusual, well he wouldn't in a pitch black yard, it's obvious he was referring to the street scene. Why then did Mortimer not see him?

Observer,

You're right, i'm jumping to a conclusion. Is it not possible people were off in their times? You'd rather believe that every witness knew the exact times which also happened to be in 5 minute increments only? 12:30, 12:35, 12:40, 12:45, 1:00.

Where are you getting 12:35 a.m. for Eagle's return, at inquest he said he returned at twenty to one. Why did Mortimer not see Eagle.

I got 12:35 from this site.

As I maintain there was no one to contradict Schwartz's statement, so why would the police think his account not worthy of the inquest?

He didn't testify. Obviously there was a problem with his story.

Why did Mortimer not appear at inquest, did the police think her story not worthy of inclusion?

Nice try! What would she testify to? She didn't see anything. The only value she would have provided is to dispute Schwartz's story if he had testified. He didn't testify so Mortimer didn't need to.

Cheers
DRoy

[Observer]

Hi DRoy

Mortimer stated that she stood at her door from 12:30 though, you're jumping to conclusions advancing her times by 5 minutes. Also Lave advanced into the street, the yard was so dark that he had to grope along the wall to find his way. If he had come out for some fresh air what would be the point of standing in a pitch black yard? He also reported that he saw nothing unusual, well he wouldn't in a pitch black yard, it's obvious he was referring to the street scene. Why then did Mortimer not see him?

Where are you getting 12:35 a.m. for Eagle's return, at inquest he said he returned at twenty to one. Why did Mortimer not see Eagle.

As I maintain there was no one to contradict Schwartz's statement, so why would the police think his account not worthy of the inquest?

Why did Mortimer not appear at inquest, did the police think her story not worthy of inclusion?

Regard

Observer

[Garry Wroe]

But isn`t that the thing with homicidal maniacs?
If Lawende had seen him a couple of minutes later ....

The one thing in this case of which I'm absolutely certain, Jon, is that Jack the Ripper wasn't a maniac.

In that instance, the man appears to be aware of Lawende and co approaching yet BS Man lays into Stride without apparently been aware of Schwartz behind him.

I doubt it, Jon. I feel sure that Broad Shoulders would have heard Schwartz's footsteps and seen Pipeman.

Aren`t we are dealing with a nutter of the highest order?

Had he been deranged, Jon, Jack the Ripper would never have been able to placate at least four successive victims and then control them at venues which were hardly sympathetic to his purpose. This man was a psychopath, not a psychotic. Try re-reading George Morris's various press statements to see whare I'm coming from.

[Garry Wroe]

The first published description of the Mitre Sq. man (2nd Oct.) may have come from Harris.

"of shabby appearance, about 30 years of age and 5ft. 9in. in height, of fair complexion, having a small fair moustache, and wearing a red neckerchief and a cap with a peak".

A little taller than the man Schwartz saw, and no mention of him looking like a sailor in this report, that apparently came later.

If so, Jon, it means that Lawende, Harris and Levy each estimated a significantly different height for Eddowes' companion, the recognition of which is certainly consistent with the psychological research that has been conducted into the reliability of eyewitness descriptions.

A point I have tried to raise many times. But, it is just as likely in my view that the couple Lawende saw were not Eddowes & the killer at all.

Unlikely in my opinion, Jon. But then we do have a similar scenario in the Swallow Gardens murder when an eyewitness mistook a local courting couple for Coles and Sadler.

[DRoy]

Observer,

I've said that if Mortimer had gone outside at 12:35 instead of 12:30 then she would have missed everybody. She like everyone else could have been off in the time.

Smith said 12:35 yet he didn't see Eagle.
Eagle said 12:35 yet he didn't see Smith.
Lave said 12:40. Mortimer couldn't see inside the yard because it was so dark.

The only people she didn't see were Schwartz, Liz or Pipeman if they were even there.

Schwartz would have had an interpreter. Because the East End was full of foreigners there would have been plenty of interpreters around. I believe that when Schwartz first gave his statement and his friend translated for him, there were things misinterpreted. If a follow up statement was done with a police interpreter they may have got the true story, a story in which he was no longer worthy of testifying at the inquest.

Cheers
DRoy

[Observer]

Observer,



Yes that was my point. Is Schwartz believed over Brown because his story is more exciting?

Not at all. In fact there's room for Brown and Schwartz to have been truthfull. As Jon Guy points out it's possible that Brown saw the couple who were at the juncture of Berner Street at 12:40 a.m. In effect Brown was 5 minutes out with his timings, a fault you fully recognise is possible.

Observer, we both have chosen to pick witnesses to believe and picked ones to discredit. It isn't about having cake and eating it too. No matter which way you look at it, every person believing in Schwartz is discounting Brown and Mortimer while also ignoring Schwartz didn't testify at the inquest.

Mortimer yes, possibly not Brown. For all we know there might not have been a translator available on the day that Schwartz was due to testify, a long shot I know but possible.

Regards

Observer

[Observer]

Observer,

Of course its possible she didn't hear it but is it likely she didn't? As said, she obviously had good hearing since she could intentify other sounds including footsteps. Footsteps would be much more quiet than three screams even if they weren't that loud.

Entirely likely she didn't hear the cries. The footsteps passed nearer to her house than the position where Liz Stride was assaulted. And as I said it's possible she was in the rear of her house, at the time of the assault, or occupied with some task or other.

So you concede things could have been lost in translation but only when its convenient to your argument?

You mistake me for another, I've never disputed the fact that it's possible that some phrases of Schwartz's account were lost in translation. It's certainly possible that sceaming but not very loud could have been mistranslated.

Maybe Mortimer didn't see Schwartz because he wasn't there hence she didn't hear Liz because it didn't happen. Its been proven Mortimer's account is faulty? Who proved that?

I beleive he was. Her account does not satisfy what happened in reality, that is, she stated that she stood at her door almost all of the time between 12:30 a.m. and 1:00 a.m. and she failed to see Smith, Stride, the man with the parcel, Lave, or Eagle. Not possible.

He was the last person who claimed to have seen her alive.

You asked me what bearing it would have on the crime should BS man not be the murderer, no mention of whether Schwartz told the truth or not. Lets face it DRoy the only chance you have of disproving Scwartz's account revolves around the accout Of Mr's Mortimer, and in my mind she's not a very reliable witness at all.

Regards

Observer

[lynn cates]

Ripperologists of the world, unite!

Hello Greg. Thanks, comrade.

Cheers.
LC