Where is Liz Stride?

[lynn cates]

Q & A

Hello Caroline. Thanks.

"So what do you think she went to the club for?"

A question I have asked a thousand times, and to which I have given one thousand, one answers.

Cheers.
LC

[caz]

Daily News October 1. Again, don't have the clipping.

A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement . It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had anyone done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and so it happened that in about four minutes' time she heard the pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband.

Hi DRoy,

Fanny Mortimer’s timings here are only approximate, just as we might expect, so they seem perfectly consistent with her coming out too late to see Stride arriving by herself at Dutfield’s Yard, and a minute or so too late to see the incident Schwartz claimed to witness at 12.45. If she stood there for ten minutes and went back in at 12.56, four minutes before the pony and cart passed, she could have come out at 12.46 and missed all the action. Stride was presumably out of sight inside the yard by then, alive or dying, and her killer could also have remained inside the yard after slitting her throat, watching and listening, and only fleeing when Mortimer had gone back in, or even after the pony and cart arrived and Louis D went into the club.

All we can safely say is that Mortimer saw nothing of Stride at all, and the killer managed to pick his moment to escape apparently unseen by anyone.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Hello Caroline. Thanks.

"May I turn the question round and ask you why must Stride not have been in the market to earn a few pence in whatever way the buyer at that hour requested? She was completely without funds when found dead."

Yes, but she had her doss for the night, right? And she could go back to Kidney at any time, right?

"Why must this be interpreted to mean she already had her bed and breakfast sorted (feather pillows, scrambled eggs and smoked salmon, no doubt) courtesy of the new beau who so discourteously left her standing outside the club to become just 'another' murdered woman?"

Don't understand this part. Sorry.

Hi Lynn,

Again, all this refers to what Mike Richards asserted about Stride not having paid for her doss that night, and not having to keep hold of her sixpence either, because she was expecting to meet a man at the club who would take care of her immediate financial needs.

If she was penniless before she reached the club, she was presumably not thinking about going back to her doss yet, right? Or back to Kidney at that point, right?

So what do you think she went to the club for? If it was to meet someone, he either failed to show up before she was murdered, or he did show up and promptly cut her throat.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Caz,

Quote:
May I turn the question round and ask you why must Stride not have been in the market to earn a few pence in whatever way the buyer at that hour requested? She was completely without funds when found dead. Why must this be interpreted to mean she already had her bed and breakfast sorted (feather pillows, scrambled eggs and smoked salmon, no doubt) courtesy of the new beau who so discourteously left her standing outside the club to become just 'another' murdered woman?

Elizabeth Tanner claims she paid Liz 6d earlier that day. She had money. Apparently she also paid Tanner for a bed the same night meaning she had a place to sleep already plus had 2d for $hits and giggles. She could have been soliciting but it appears she didn't have to.

Tell this to Mike Richards. His contention was that Stride didn’t dip into her sixpence to secure a bed because she had no intention of returning there that night. He argues that the sixpence went on her flower and cachous to make herself more attractive to the man she thought would be meeting her at the club and whisking her off somewhere. If there is evidence that she paid for a bed up front, fully intending to return after whatever business she had at the club, bang goes Mike’s theory. But the fact remains that she was penniless when found dead, and therefore entirely without funds for her next meal or drink, even if she had lined up a bed with her name on it.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Caz,

Scwartz didn't attend the inquest. If you believe him to be such an important witness then why didn't he testify? You have to answer that. Please don't say in order to protect the witness somehow and please don't use the seaside home. If he had something of value, he should have testified. Period. He didn't though so why not?

Hi Droy,

Sorry for the delay in replying.

I don’t know why you think I consider Schwartz to be ‘such an important witness’ that he should have testified at the inquest. I’m not even completely sure we know whose decision it was, Schwartz’s or the authorities, that he didn’t attend. In any case, he did come forward to give his statement to the police on the day of the murder, and he only claimed to witness a minor assault, which clearly wasn’t the cause of death. If he knew anything about the recent murders (Tabram, Nichols and Chapman), he nevertheless didn’t consider Stride to be in mortal danger from BS man, or he would surely have roped in Pipeman to help prevent another tragedy, or if he was too scared he could at the very least have run to fetch the nearest policeman.

Regarding BS Man, half believe he had to be Liz's killer and the other half say it wasn't him. Some of the biggest names (at least in my opinion some of the biggest names in Ripperology) feel it wasn't BS Man. If it wasn't BS Man then Schwartz's tale doesn't have much value at all other than he apparently would have been the last person to see Liz alive.

Which half am I in then, because I don’t believe BS man had to be the killer, nor do I believe he couldn’t have been. I’m open to both possibilities equally. The police obviously didn’t know either way, but they were best placed to judge the value or otherwise of what Schwartz claimed to witness, 15 minutes before the murder was discovered. Whether the tale was invented or he told the truth as he saw it, he wasn’t the last person to see Stride alive. He apparently fled incontinently, leaving BS with Stride, and Pipeman free to return to the scene if he chose to do so.

Earlier in the thread, Ben argued that it was so unlikely for Stride to have been manhandled by one man then murdered by another within 15 minutes, that we can only conclude BS man was her killer, whether he was the ripper or not. I find it very unlikely that Stride was not a ripper victim but not in the least bit unlikely that BS was either the ripper himself or pushed off giving the ripper a golden opportunity to take over while Stride was collecting herself. At 12.45, when BS man was supposedly manhandling Stride, her killer could in theory have been ten minutes’ walking distance away (ie almost as far away as Mitre Square but in any direction) and a prostitute could in theory have tried to pick up several club members in that time, which would make Schwartz’s account entirely irrelevant to who killed her.

Ben would do well to look at the case of Sally Anne Bowman’s ex boyfriend, who would have been charged with her murder (as Ben would charge BS man with Stride’s) had DNA tests not cleared him and proved Mark Dixie’s guilt. Sally and her ex had a long argument in his car parked outside her home. She finally got out and he drove off, but in the few seconds it would have taken for her to walk to her front door, Dixie appeared out of nowhere and stabbed her through the neck. He then retreated into the shadows in case he had disturbed any of the residents, only returning to violate the body and take trophies when he judged the coast to be clear.

Love,

Caz
X

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

I never referred to it as such

Hello Mike, Michael, DLDWatson and all,

One of the things I enjoy on these boards (apart from whodunnit)is the chance to learn more about the social history and conditions at the time. By referring to the Berrner Street as a Jewish Immigrant club we are ignoring a large chunk of social history and also denying new posters the chance to learn more about the origins of socialism. Without clubs like these there would be no pensions, health care, education for children or trades union to fight for decent working conditions today. Conditions for poor working people were grim, 24 hours in a workhouse would have the modern poster screaming for mercy. The match girls, with their rotting jaws, the sweatshops and terrible working conditions are now gone, at least in the western world (sadly not in poorer countries) and the call for change came from small clubs such as these. Their protests were without regard for nationality, ethnicity or religion, Such things were unimportant in the struggle for a better and more secure life. They did not reap the benefits of their struggle but we do. The small beginnings in these clubs did much to ensure the relatively secure lives we live today.

So please don't refer to the Berner street club as a Jewish Immigrant club - it was so much more than this.

Cheers,
C4

PLEASE can we leave this now. I have given the reasons for my objections.

The Jewish aspect is simply data to me. Calling it the Jewish Club is inaccurate. As that was not it's name or it's purported purpose. It is information that needs inclusion though. To remove it is the same as to embellish.

[The Good Michael]

So how long do you think Liz was standing in front of the Jewish immigrant's club before she was accosted? Or do you think she was brought there and then accosted?

Mike

[curious4]

Berner Street

Hello Mike, Michael, DLDWatson and all,

One of the things I enjoy on these boards (apart from whodunnit)is the chance to learn more about the social history and conditions at the time. By referring to the Berrner Street as a Jewish Immigrant club we are ignoring a large chunk of social history and also denying new posters the chance to learn more about the origins of socialism. Without clubs like these there would be no pensions, health care, education for children or trades union to fight for decent working conditions today. Conditions for poor working people were grim, 24 hours in a workhouse would have the modern poster screaming for mercy. The match girls, with their rotting jaws, the sweatshops and terrible working conditions are now gone, at least in the western world (sadly not in poorer countries) and the call for change came from small clubs such as these. Their protests were without regard for nationality, ethnicity or religion, Such things were unimportant in the struggle for a better and more secure life. They did not reap the benefits of their struggle but we do. The small beginnings in these clubs did much to ensure the relatively secure lives we live today.

So please don't refer to the Berner street club as a Jewish Immigrant club - it was so much more than this.

Cheers,
C4

PLEASE can we leave this now. I have given the reasons for my objections.

[DVV]

Off-topic, yes.
Or on Mike's fav topic.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Dvv

It definitely is off topic. Where is Liz? I would say Berner St. Decent enough probability between 12:30 and after 1:00 am. Well, definite after 1.

[DVV]

Isn't this discussion a bit futile ?
How could anarchist/socialist foreigners be popular ?
There is no street bearing the name of Geronimo Caserio in France either.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

[QUOTE=curious4;260776]Hello Mike,

Please go back and read what I have written. My first post states that Michael R was wrong to call the club an "immigrant jews' club. I also thought it unnecessary to drag religion into the equation. The club was unpopular because it was a socialist club, not because it had mainly jewish members. At no point have I ever implied that you were not being pc or anything else. I also don't understand why you felt personally under attack when the post was addressed to Michael R.

Regards,
Gwyneth[/QUOTE

Is it not possible for it to be unpopular because it is both a socialist club and predominated, don't think that's a word but really should be, by folk of Jewish decent? Despite how simple most people are, they tend to have knack for compartmentalising hate. Sorry for my lack of English skills. Past, Present, and Future.

[curious4]

The truth is

Hello Mike,

Please go back and read what I have written. My first post states that Michael R was wrong to call the club an "immigrant jews' club. I also thought it unnecessary to drag religion into the equation. The club was unpopular because it was a socialist club, not because it had mainly jewish members. At no point have I ever implied that you were not being pc or anything else. I also don't understand why you felt personally under attack when the post was addressed to Michael R.

Regards,
Gwyneth

[The Good Michael]

Hello Mike,

Just one more time and as simply as I can explain. A fishing club, where people meet to fish and discuss fishing is still a fishing club even if the members are 95% eskimos. A club where people meet to discuss socialism is still a socialist club whatever the makeup is of the members. Forget religion, forget ethnicity, if the aim of a club is to discuss and propagate socialism, it is a socialist club.

Of course, but being Jewish is part of it and cannot be left out of the equation. The truth is, if you are being honest, you thought I was being politically incorrect or you wouldn't have mentioned anything in the first place. I wasn't.

Cheers,

Mike

[The Good Michael]

Like it or not folks....Judaism is a big part of this evenings events....1st murder on the property of a club primarily populated by Immigrant Jews, a possible witness to an attack on that victim by a Jewish man passing by...a 2nd murder within an hour with 3 Jewish witnesses, having just left a Jewish club, passing what at least 1 of them thinks was the soon to be victim and a sailor type male,.... ...and finally a message and a piece of crime scene evidence left at the entrance to Model Homes almost exclusively tenanted by Immigrant Jews.... and a reference to Jews in the chalk message.

Well, Judaism wasn't part of the events. Judaism is the religion to be precise. But yes, being Jewish and immigrants and socialists were the connection for all of them but a few.

Mike