Where is Liz Stride?

[caz]

This is one possible scenario I see for Liz, although I can see arguments for and against......Liz Stride comes into the passageway just after 12:35am...why? Because she was asked to come to the side door , leading to the kitchen. There was about 200 people at that meeting and Im sure a good mess to clean up...since Liz has "been at work among the Jews" the previous months, and since her reputation is one of being a very good cleaner, perhaps a member asked her to assist Mrs D, or perhaps Mrs D heard of her and hired her for this event. Lots of perhaps's, sure.....but not unreasonable considering what information we do know about Liz. What if she was hired to help clean the club?

Terribly unlikely, Mike, because in that case the person or persons who had hired her, or knew about it, would simply have said so with no comeback on them. "The poor woman must have been cut down by Schwartz's gentile thug, before she could reach the side door to start scrubbing for us."

Why on earth would they have left the police, the press and the outside world with the erroneous impression that she had been there for immoral purposes when murdered on their premises, if they knew she was there to clean for them but just didn't make it before the "Phantom Menace" had apparently struck again?

Would it have been worth being charged with perverting the course of justice, in the event that her purpose for being there had come out because Stride had boasted to all and sundry about the job she had lined up at the club that night? I hardly think so, Mike.

Similarly, I doubt that her killer had made an appointment with her to meet at the club, because she could have boasted about that too.

What does that leave you with? The miserable excuse for a date who stood her up then failed to come forward afterwards to testify that she wasn't soliciting when the fiend struck?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Hello Caroline. Thanks. Apologies not needed.

If you are worried about a place to sleep, why not just pay the doss money--you have it with you?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Who says Stride was worried? She may have been by 12.30, having spent all her money. But Nichols apparently wasn't worried, having spent her doss money three times over. She did have a jolly new bonnet to help attract a further supply, but then Stride had her flower, cachous and designer evening frock.

Love,

Caz
X

[Michael W Richards]

So this person, who wanted her to clean at that time of night, or wanted to take her out on a date after all the pubs were shut, was apparently not only late to the point of rudeness, leaving this respectable woman hanging around the club all alone, looking like some tart on the make, but also didn't see fit to come forward afterwards, to explain the victim's innocent reasons for being there and their own failure to show up - for which they would presumably have had a decent alibi?

Alternatively, this person was the killer, who planned the whole thing in advance for some unknown motive and managed to con this seasoned con woman?

It's not looking terribly likely, is it?

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz,

In the scenario youre trying to create here I would agree, not likely at all.

However that has little to do with what I believe may be the case here. I dont presume that the killer was a member of the club, for one. I believe he was employed by the club and was hanging about in the passageway, perhaps with another guy who maybe was smoking a pipe. Perhaps they were waiting for their pay...maybe Security fellows hired for the night. Or just hanging around smoking after the meeting,..like many people did after meetings in the past.

This is one possible scenario I see for Liz, although I can see arguments for and against......Liz Stride comes into the passageway just after 12:35am...why? Because she was asked to come to the side door , leading to the kitchen. There was about 200 people at that meeting and Im sure a good mess to clean up...since Liz has "been at work among the Jews" the previous months, and since her reputation is one of being a very good cleaner, perhaps a member asked her to assist Mrs D, or perhaps Mrs D heard of her and hired her for this event. Lots of perhaps's, sure.....but not unreasonable considering what information we do know about Liz. What if she was hired to help clean the club?

Liz is in the passageway after Smith leaves, and she is being harassed a bit by a security man or 2, assuming...like oh so many ...that she is "on the hustle". Eagle sees her when he enters the gates, but goes inside anyway. Shortly thereafter a person attending the meeting and singsong after leaves via the side door, and as he is leaving he sees a man struggling with a woman just inside the gates. Another is over by a cottage on the other side of the passageway....just smoking his pipe. He beetles off out the gates. He misses Liz's murder by a few seconds.

It could also work without the guy coming out of the kitchen door to see the altercation, or it could work if Eagle meets Liz outside the gates and has her wait for him while he goes inside. That one may imply date...or that he brokered the job for Liz, as he knows some Jews that she has cleaned for recently.

Under that kind of scenario umbrella, we would have the club being responsible for the murder due to the fact that the murderer was employed by them. The members themselves need do nothing wrong that night to have a great deal of trouble dropped into their lap. They already had the issue of where the body was...on their property....but potentially a huge problem if anyone perceived them as guilty of the crime or somehow responsible.

And lets not forget what the officials, and many locals, believed was Jacks ethnicity at that time.

Its for those kinds of reasons that I can see very plausibly certain club members almost forced to provide statements that would circumvent any hint of complicity. The ones employed by the club.

Cheers caz

[lynn cates]

doss

Hello Caroline. Thanks. Apologies not needed.

If you are worried about a place to sleep, why not just pay the doss money--you have it with you?

Cheers.
LC

[caz]

She is found without alcohol in her system...

I don't think she was, Mike, not when she was found, ie shortly after 1am. By the time they checked for alcohol, would any have shown up, whether she had been drinking or not?

Since she seems to spend some time lingering around the club after 12:3o my suspicions are that she was waiting for someone to come outside, or possibly she was waiting for someone to return. Which could indicate a client for her cleaning services, she was at that time at work "among the Jews"...or a date.

So this person, who wanted her to clean at that time of night, or wanted to take her out on a date after all the pubs were shut, was apparently not only late to the point of rudeness, leaving this respectable woman hanging around the club all alone, looking like some tart on the make, but also didn't see fit to come forward afterwards, to explain the victim's innocent reasons for being there and their own failure to show up - for which they would presumably have had a decent alibi?

Alternatively, this person was the killer, who planned the whole thing in advance for some unknown motive and managed to con this seasoned con woman?

It's not looking terribly likely, is it?

Love,

Caz
X

[Michael W Richards]

As for a glimpse into her thinking, Nichols was apparently able to pay for her doss three times over on the night she met her killer, but it didn't stop her spending it each time and having to look for a fourth supply - which is presumably why she met her killer.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz,

Its a good assumption, but it also may be revealing in terms of some Victim profiling done by the killer. Polly wobbled when she walked away,...(on a side note I recall that she had some kind of metal attacked to either her soles or heels, I assume to prolong the life of the shoe... do you recall something about that?)....and Annie was ill, and still a little worse for the wear from her mini brawl earlier that week. And Donovan seems to feel she was drunk when he last sees her.

These 2 women were deemed suitable prey by their killer, almost certainly the same man. They were also killed within 10 days of each other, and no other unsolved murders in the area occurred either 3 weeks prior or for 3 weeks afterward.

It seems to me that we have evidence of a spree killer, not a serial one. Supported by the next murder attributed to Jack, very unlike these first 2 kills.

Cheers

[caz]

Hello Caroline.

"You need to address this to DRoy and Lynn, who both suggested that Stride had booked and paid for a bed that night before hitting the streets."

Where did I suggest this? Quite the contrary. She did NOT pay her doss, though able. A fact pointed out at inquest.

Perhaps a glimpse into her thinking that night?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

In which case I apologise for misunderstanding you. When I suggested Stride might have rejected BS man earlier and gone to the club for safety, I thought you asked why she could not simply have hot-footed it back to her doss instead or even gone back to Kidney.

Clearly she could not have done the former if she had neglected to pay for a bed in advance and had spent all her money. And maybe she thought, as another unfortunate must have been thinking around the same time, that she would get a damn fine hiding if she turned up on her fella's doorstep penniless at that time of night.

As for a glimpse into her thinking, Nichols was apparently able to pay for her doss three times over on the night she met her killer, but it didn't stop her spending it each time and having to look for a fourth supply - which is presumably why she met her killer.

Love,

Caz
X

[lynn cates]

research

Hello Colin, Dave. Thanks.

Pleasure's all mine. It was a fine piece of research they did.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

That's the one Lynn - thought it was Forvo but not so...shows how memory can be at error - thanks!

All the best

Dave

PS Colin and Debs behind it - like so many good things on here - might've known it!

[Bridewell]

It is indeed, Lynn. I'd been looking for it too. I'll bump the translation comparison which Debra was kind enough to attach:

http://translate.google.com/?tl=hu&q=undefined#auto/hu/dagger%0Apipe

[lynn cates]

pipe

Hello Dave.

This it?

Cheers.
LC

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=223629&highlight=pipe#post223629

[Cogidubnus]

I seem to recall - maybe from the earlier boards -a discussion about Schwartz's evidence, where a poster who knew Hungarian made some interesting and specific suggestions about how words might have been misunderstood by the translator.

Any other long-standing member recall that thread. I think it might have had to do with the word for pipe....?

Phil

Hi Phil

I too remember that thread - it was a comparison of the two slightly differing Schwartz accounts, the one to the police, and the other to the papers. As I recall the conclusion reached (backed up by a reference to the inrternet site "Forvo") was that an unskilled (or Non-native) Hungarian - English translator might've confused the Hungarian word for "Pipe" with that for "Dagger", (they sound pretty alike - just a slight differerence in inflexion as I recall) thus explaining how the one transmogrified into the other.

I think it was assumed that the police got the more accurate translation but can't recall why...It was definitely on the current boards because I've seen it and my membership is relatively recent - damned if I can find it now though!

All the best mate

Dave

[Jon Guy]

Don't you wonder, Jon, what the green velvet was about? where she got it? when? why? was there enough for a new dress. Perhaps she was waiting until she got enough funds to have it made up?

don't you wonder, Jon?

Yes, I have wondered, I have thoughts on the subject.


What do you wonder, Curious?

[Phil H]

One possibility for the piece of velvet, is that it had been given to her by her new "beau" - it seems special.

Given that Victorian dresses were very full and used a LOT of material (yards and yards) I doubt there was enough for a dress - I don't think that much material would count as a "piece".

But were not the Kosminski's makers of "mantles" or capes (House p38ff) that might have used a piece of velvet of this size - or from which this might be a remnant? Such pieces,. too small for re-use might have been given as "perks" to employees.

I make no suggestion that a Kosminski was "dating" Liz but there may have been many other Jewish men engaged in the clothing trade. I offer it simply as an observation.

A nice piece of silk velvet would have been out of the range of someone like Liz and thus a nice present - it might make a collar for an older coat, trimming for a bonnet, or maybe a bodice depending on its size.

I believe that velvet of the sort made and used in Victorian times would have marked easily - hence perhaps, Liz Stride's care of her "piece".

Phil

[curious]

Perhaps, she was planning to make that cleaning apron out of it, Mike ?

Don't you wonder, Jon, what the green velvet was about? where she got it? when? why? was there enough for a new dress. Perhaps she was waiting until she got enough funds to have it made up?

don't you wonder, Jon?

curious