Was Stride Really a JtR Victim?

[Michael W Richards]

Michael, as you are no doubt aware, the definition of a serial killer is someone who kills on three or more separate occasions, so even if Stride was taken out of the equation, Jack would still be regarded as a serial killer. And we would still have a series of killings, but 4 instead of 5.

The argument put forward by DLDW is a valid one, that Eddowes' injuries may just have easily been caused by him venting his frustration at not being able to kill since Chapman, as opposed to being disturbed at Dutfields yard.

Best wishes, Bob.

Hi Bob,

wondering aloud if this is Bob Hinton who I used to speak with here from time to time....there is ample evidence and expert testimony that the man that killed Polly and Annie had the knife skills and knowledge of a medical student. Brown states regarding Kate Eddowes that he believed some knowledge of "abdominal organs, and how to locate them" was present.

However, Phillips saw the hand of an amateur, and he examined Chapman...arguably the woman with the most sophisticated cutting done to her corpse. Plus we have no evidence that answers the question why she was there in the first place, if she isnt accosted by a strange man then she likely isnt accosted by the same man that picked up women previously unknown to him that were soliciting. All we know is that she seemed friendly with the man Lawende says he saw with her....a sighting that I am suspicious about anyway...the time of that sighting and the time of her discovery means this was a very rapid murder/mutilation.

I think a man who knew what he was doing killed the first 2, a man killed someone in a momentary fit of anger for the third, a man silenced a threat for the 4th, and a lover or friend offed a pretty young prostitute, for the last.

People see knife cuts and body parts in some victims and perhaps justifiably think that suggests a continuing reign of terror by the man who was responsible for the nickname given to him in late September, before the Double Event. But those first 2 killings were committed because the killer wanted something specific. The motivation for those murders has been identified.

Can you say for certain that any murder after Annie Chapman was for the same motive? Lets say Phillips and Baxter are correct...he wanted a uterus from Annie, and also likely from Polly. Murder victim #3 has no mutilations whatsoever, murder victim #4 has a partial uterus and a kidney taken,....and murder#5 loses a heart.

IF they were correct, then it would seem we do not have similar crimes from the standpoint of motivation.

The murders are not the issue,..anyone can, and people often do, kill other people. Why these women were killed has not been answered by a theory of a serial madman.

Cheers Bob

[Cogidubnus]

Thanks Diga...your kind thoughts are reciprocated! (But please leave the one-eared artist out of it!)...

Every good wish

Dave

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Oh yeah!

No...you were both in appallingly bad company, , but I believe there may be enough of the rest of us with you (including some who are prepared to believe either way) to elevate your status a little!

All the best

Dave

Just for that be prepared to be Van Gouged Sickerted and Maybricked by me till the end of your days! Wait a minute. Why would I do that to myself? Maybe just some Fenian conspiracy. To teach you a lesson.

[Cogidubnus]

No...you were both in appallingly bad company, , but I believe there may be enough of the rest of us with you (including some who are prepared to believe either way) to elevate your status a little!

All the best

Dave

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

For what its worth, I think Tabram was JTR's first victim, but I've posted my thoughts on that thread,

Bob.

I am not quick to dismiss it as a good possibility. So you are in Good company.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo and thanks bobh!

I tend to not get wrapped up in any of the times. I see them as approximations of one's perception of time lest there is a proven means for them to know i.e. Blackwell. Dimshitz stated in was a little before one on the clock he saw at the shop he passed. I don't recall which one. PC Lamb stated he encountered the men who alerted him to the murder a little before one. Those statements are not congruent. Blackwell having his own timepiece is where I start. Then work backwards. Initially he stated that the murder occured no more than 20 min. Later changed it to between 20-30. Currently I am thinking closer to the 20 min mark than the 30 min mark. It is stated she was still bleeding upon discovery. PC Lamb shouldn't like to say she was, and Blackwell's assistant said she wasn't when he arrived. It appears to be highly unlikely she would have bled for 15min. It was also stated by, which doctor I can not recall, the partial severing of carotid artery would have taken approx 1 1/2 min for her to die from. Apparently slower.

[bobh]

For what its worth, I think Tabram was JTR's first victim, but I've posted my thoughts on that thread,

Bob.

[bobh]

Michael, as you are no doubt aware, the definition of a serial killer is someone who kills on three or more separate occasions, so even if Stride was taken out of the equation, Jack would still be regarded as a serial killer. And we would still have a series of killings, but 4 instead of 5.

The argument put forward by DLDW is a valid one, that Eddowes' injuries may just have easily been caused by him venting his frustration at not being able to kill since Chapman, as opposed to being disturbed at Dutfields yard.

Best wishes, Bob.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

[QUOTE=Michael W Richards;263979........

There are many reasons to question Strides inclusion in that Group of Five, and a fair bit of re-evaluating would be needed to understand what exactly did take place that Fall.

Cheers[/QUOTE]

Indeed Sir, indeed.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo

The exclusion of Stride is not a deal breaker by any means. The possible reason for Eddowes' facial mutilations being his thwarting at Berner Street, is only one of many. One might argue his being thwarted since Chapman just as likely. I might suggest simply this-more canvas. A second individual slitting women's throats is the better thing to focus on to try and determine ic we are dealing with a serial murderer. Imao.

[Michael W Richards]

The original point I was making was that if Stride wasn't a JTR victim, then the evidence from this killing means diddley squat, because it wasn't Jack's work.

I beg to differ Bob, if Liz Stride was not killed by the fellow nicknamed Jack, then we do not have a "series" of killings...therefore its unlikely we have a "serial" killer...nor a Canonical Group, we do not have a Double Event,...which removes the argument used to explain the new wounds found on Kate's face, anger from his murder interruptus on Berner Street,...and we would have evidence that at least 1 other man was slicing womens throats that Fall.

There are many reasons to question Strides inclusion in that Group of Five, and a fair bit of re-evaluating would be needed to understand what exactly did take place that Fall.

Cheers

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo bobh

The original point I was making was that if Stride wasn't a JTR victim, then the evidence from this killing means diddley squat, because it wasn't Jack's work.

Exactly. So determining if Stride was or wasn't a victim of "JTR" progresses the investigation. If she happens to be then may be able to learn more about the killer.

[lynn cates]

night club

Hello Bob. Thanks.

Night club?

Cheers.
LC

[bobh]

The original point I was making was that if Stride wasn't a JTR victim, then the evidence from this killing means diddley squat, because it wasn't Jack's work.

[bobh]

Lyn, if a woman is hanging around the outside of the victorian equivalent of a nightclub at one in the morning, of course she was a brass. Would you be hanging around an alleyway outside a nightclub at one in the morning? of course you wouldn't.

But i appreciate you are making me prove every point, lol.Best wishes, Bob.