Was Stride Really a JtR Victim?

[Observer]

Sorry to interject Wickerman, but I believe Mr Cates is referring to this section of Kelly's interview he gave to The Echo.

" In the summer time we always went down into Kent hopping. We used sometimes to get on very well, but this year there was a bad crop, and it didn't pay us. We had to walk home after we finished. About three weeks ago, on the road, we picked up with another couple. They used to live in London, and the woman made Kate take a pawnticket she had for a flannel shirt that had been 'popped' at Jones's, in Church-street. It was only for ninepence, but Kate took it, and we got the money. The other couple didn't come on to London, but went North."

If you'll note in particular these sections

"About three weeks ago, on the road, we picked up with another couple."

"The other couple didn't come on to London, but went North."

You'll note, if you take the above two statements at face value it appears to imply that Kelly and Eddowes returned to London sometime around the second week in September.

Also note that the reference to the pawn ticket makes little sense. If Eddowes recieved a pawn ticket for a shirt that had been "popped", she would not recieve the ninepence it had been "popped" for (should she redeem the shirt) as stated in the article. If she presented the ticket at the pawn shop she would have had to pay ninepence in order to retrieve the shirt. In effect the ninepence would have been given to the couple whom Eddowes recieved the ticket from.

There is a reference from Kelly in another publication to the effect that the couple in question were headed for Cheltenham. If they were in Kent at the time, and the couple were headed for Cheltenham, then they would not be headed North as Kelly implied

But I'll stop here, why should I do Mr Cate's work.

The thing is, we are talking about an Echo article, the same publication which reported the following regarding Eddowes, as she lay at rest.

"It still lies just as it was found. Upon the breast are two withered chrysanthemums. They are very small, and when pinned there on Saturday night were pure white. They are faded now, and well-nigh shriveled beyond recognition."

Do you believe the above? Or is it an invented reference to Eddowes life, cut short, snuffed out in an instant?

All I'll add is this. Take articles written by The Echo at face value and you're dicing with disaster. It's a virtual honey-pot for the proliferation of all kinds of conspiracy plots.

Observer

[lynn cates]

Is there an Echo in here?

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Have a close look at his "Echo" interview. He inadvertently lets it out.

Cheers.
LC

[martin wilson]

Donald Swanson's report of the 19th October,ending 'appearance of a sailor' provoked a thought the other day.
Israel Schwartz was reported as saying the man walked as if partially intoxicated, and common sense would suggest he probably was.
Another possibility is he was a sailor,walking with that peculiar gait sailors have for a while after serving for some time on a rolling ship.

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

You mean for being gone? He claimed he was in Kent until 27 September. But I don't buy it.

Cheers.
LC

Ah, ok, thanks Lynn.
What would your version read like?

[lynn cates]

gone

Hello Jon. Thanks.

You mean for being gone? He claimed he was in Kent until 27 September. But I don't buy it.

Cheers.
LC

[Colin Roberts]

I am inclined to believe that Eddowes didn't go to the casual ward – any casual ward – on the night in question.

Whether Kelly knew where she had actually gone is anybody's guess.

But above all else, I am inclined to believe that the following story, which was published by the East London Observer, 13 October 1888, is a complete fabrication, from start to finish:

A reporter gleaned some curious information from the Casual Ward Superintendent of Mile End, regarding Kate Eddowes, the Mitre-square victim. She was formerly well-known in the casual wards there, but had disappeared for a considerable time until the Friday preceding her murder. Asking the woman where she had been in the interval, the superintendent was met with the reply, that she had been in the country "hopping". "But," added the woman, "I have come back to earn the reward offered for the apprehension of the Whitechapel murderer. I think I know him." "Mind he doesn't murder you too" replied the superintendent jocularly. "Oh, no fear of that," was the remark made by Kate Eddowes as she left. Within four-and-twenty hours afterwards she was a mutilated corpse.

If I am inclined to believe that Eddowes did not spend the night of 28 September 1888 in the Mile End Old Town Casual Ward, then why should I believe so much as a single word of this article?

I'm not peddling some theory regarding her actual (supposed) whereabouts that evening. I simply don't believe that they coincided with those which she claimed.

[Wickerman]

By the way, even Kelly himself claimed that the picking was bad. Didn't say why he stayed there an extra three weeks.

Hi Lynn.
To that specific point, why do you think he needed to give a reason?

[lynn cates]

brackets

Hello Michael. Thanks.

I can't speak for others, only myself. And I am NOT in favour of discarding stories--press, or otherwise--as I think most contain a kernel of truth.

I AM, however, in favour of criticising each one. If too much difficulty is found, it should be placed in brackets.

By the way, even Kelly himself claimed that the picking was bad. Didn't say why he stayed there an extra three weeks.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

.... Much like many witness accounts are discarded because there's only one account published, or a newspaper is disreputable, or for any number of reasons.

Here's a man who knows exactly what is going on, such is the deplorable state of Ripperology today.

[The Good Michael]

Are you seriously suggesting that a news item was deliberately made up? Surely such a deception would be easily verified?

I can accept mistakes in the news and embellishments, but wholesale creation? No.

No. I am simply pointing out that if this snippet you posted were something that contradicted someone's "theory", it would be heavily scrutinized and discarded. Much like many witness accounts are discarded because there's only one account published, or a newspaper is disreputable, or for any number of reasons. I will just jump ahead of the pack and say that one snippet proves nothing and I am discarding your information...no offense intended.

Mike

[lynn cates]

in the news

Hello Michael. Thanks.

Are you seriously suggesting that a news item was deliberately made up? Surely such a deception would be easily verified?

I can accept mistakes in the news and embellishments, but wholesale creation? No.

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

The hops harvest was SO bad that the "Londoners" were coming back during the first week of September--the work being done by the locals.

Snippet is from 5 September, or thereabouts.

How do we know that wasn't just made up by an enterprising journalist? We hear such things all the time on this site.

Mike

[lynn cates]

Hop to it.

Hello Jon. The hops harvest was SO bad that the "Londoners" were coming back during the first week of September--the work being done by the locals.

Snippet is from 5 September, or thereabouts.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

I appreciate the quote concerning Casual Wards, Colin, thankyou.

But above all else, I am inclined to believe that the following story, which was published by the East London Observer, 13 October 1888, is a complete fabrication, from start to finish:

A reporter gleaned some curious information from the Casual Ward Superintendent of Mile End, regarding Kate Eddowes, the Mitre-square victim. She was formerly well-known in the casual wards there, but had disappeared for a considerable time until the Friday preceding her murder. Asking the woman where she had been in the interval, the superintendent was met with the reply, that she had been in the country "hopping". "But," added the woman, "I have come back to earn the reward offered for the apprehension of the Whitechapel murderer. I think I know him." "Mind he doesn't murder you too" replied the superintendent jocularly. "Oh, no fear of that," was the remark made by Kate Eddowes as she left. Within four-and-twenty hours afterwards she was a mutilated corpse.

We do know from other press articles that the Hop-crop was particularly bad this year, pickers were tramping home early in droves. So we can guess the true reason for Eddowes coming home was the same reason as that for everyone else.
I don't know about the whole paragraph (above) being fabricated, but the subsequent exchange at the end is the apocryphal bit. Reminds us of the words spoken by Stride, supposedly heard by Dr Barnardo.

[Colin Roberts]

Was the above procedure in use in 1888?

My guess, Observer, is that it was not.

If the practice became fairly common by the mid-to-late 1860's, only to fizzle at some point, and then be rejuvenated by the early 1900's, then 1888 wouldn't seem to be a likelihood.

Regarding Eddowes and Mile End, are you saying that her attendance there on the night of the 28th September 1888 was her sole visit to that establishment?

I am inclined to believe that Eddowes didn't go to the casual ward – any casual ward – on the night in question.

Whether Kelly knew where she had actually gone is anybody's guess.

But above all else, I am inclined to believe that the following story, which was published by the East London Observer, 13 October 1888, is a complete fabrication, from start to finish:

A reporter gleaned some curious information from the Casual Ward Superintendent of Mile End, regarding Kate Eddowes, the Mitre-square victim. She was formerly well-known in the casual wards there, but had disappeared for a considerable time until the Friday preceding her murder. Asking the woman where she had been in the interval, the superintendent was met with the reply, that she had been in the country "hopping". "But," added the woman, "I have come back to earn the reward offered for the apprehension of the Whitechapel murderer. I think I know him." "Mind he doesn't murder you too" replied the superintendent jocularly. "Oh, no fear of that," was the remark made by Kate Eddowes as she left. Within four-and-twenty hours afterwards she was a mutilated corpse.