Was Stride Really a JtR Victim?

[Observer]

Thats the one Colin.



"The resulting resurgence of numbers applying for admission to the casual wards led to the re-introduction of certificates, or way-tickets, in order to identify honest wayfarers. Way-tickets, issued by the police or casual-ward superintendent, were for a specified duration along a particular route and would be endorsed at each workhouse visited. The ticket-holder would be entitled to favourable treatment, such as being exempt from work tasks or being allowed early release from the casual ward. Despite some initial enthusiasm, take-up of the scheme was uneven and its use declined."

Was the above procedure in use in 1888? For this is how I described the ticket I had in mind.

Regarding Eddowes and Mile End, are you saying that her attendance there on the night of the 28th September 1888 was her sole visit to that establishment?

I'd agree with you regarding Eddowes claim that she knew The Whitechapel Fiend. I'm sure she know of quite a few feinds, but not The Whitechapel Fiend. A fiend among fiends.

Regards

Observer

[Colin Roberts]

Eddowes was known at the Mile End Ward, ...

Such was the claim of a single tabloid, Observer.

As I have already indicated, the tabloid failed to mention the identity of the Casual Ward superintendent in whom Eddowes allegedly confided; and no such person was called to testify at the Eddowes inquest.

And I seriously doubt that a casual ward superintendent would willingly concede that he had regularly admitted a casual pauper that had no claim to settlement within the Poor Law constituency that owned and operated the facility, i.e. the Hamlet of Mile End Old Town.

The notion that Eddowes believed that she knew the identity of the 'Whitechapel Fiend' needs to be scrapped, as it is surely mythical!

Never heard of this, who would issue the ticket?

The casual wards in various other towns.

As I said the tickets in question are a long shot.

I believe that Observer has confused his recollections of something that he may have read regarding the so-called 'way-ticket'.

http://books.google.com/books?id=QLQOAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA44&lpg=PA44&dq=way+ticket+casual+ward&source=bl&ots=gNPIKWk1NO&sig=P2hrvZIhIGbEWlTIJTOhXv6eD-M&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UP6-UZLYM46K9ASQzoCIBw&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Way Tickets and Bread Tickets

Over the years, the overall numbers admitted to casual wards rose and fell due to a variety of factors. In the "Hungry Forties", trade recessions coupled with the effects of the Irish Famine led to a sharp increase. In 1848, in an attempt to reverse this rise, the Poor Law Board's first President, Charles Buller, issued new guidelines for the admission of casuals. The so-called Buller memorandum urged unions to discriminate between the honest unemployed "temporarily and unavoidably in distress" who were in search of work, and the "habitual tramp or vagrant who simulates destitution". It was suggested that the former category be issued with a certificate, as in the old "pass" system, through which they might receive preferential admission or treatment at the workhouses along a particular route, while the latter might even be refused admission completely unless in immediate danger of starvation. In making this distinction, Buller suggested that local police officers be appointed as assistant relieving officers and take on the job of issuing casual ward admission tickets. In an overenthusiastic response to these proposals, some unions even went so far as close their casual wards. Overall, a 38% drop in casual ward admissions took place in the following year.

By 1863, it had become apparent that many unions were evading their responsibilities towards the casual poor. Poor Law Board President C.P. Villiers issued a circular reminding unions of their obligation to help the genuinely destitute. In London, this was encouraged by making the cost of casual relief chargeable to a common fund, provided for by the Metropolitan Board of Works then, from 1867, by the Common Poor Fund. The resulting resurgence of numbers applying for admission to the casual wards led to the re-introduction of certificates, or way-tickets, in order to identify honest wayfarers. Way-tickets, issued by the police or casual-ward superintendent, were for a specified duration along a particular route and would be endorsed at each workhouse visited. The ticket-holder would be entitled to favourable treatment, such as being exempt from work tasks or being allowed early release from the casual ward. Despite some initial enthusiasm, take-up of the scheme was uneven and its use declined. However, in the early 1900s, a revival of interest took place, helped by encouragement from the Local Government Board, and the creation of County Vagrancy Committees. By 1920, wayticket schemes were operating in 45 counties in England and Wales.

In conjunction with waytickets, many casual wards also issued vagrants with meal-tickets or bread-tickets which could be redeemed for food at a specific location en route. These were intended to try and ensure that casuals kept to their supposed destination, and also aimed to reduce begging.

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/vagrants/index.shtml

[Observer]

I'd suggest someone throw you one, before those conspiracy theories sink without trace.

[lynn cates]

one more down

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Cute. So I suppose Mae West can be crossed off the list?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Ah, now you're talking about too much evidence Lynn, both for and against.

[lynn cates]

grape response

Hello Dave. Thanks.

"Oooh, peel me a grape." (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

If you have any other evidence which points to Liz Stride being in regular employment at the time of her death feel free to share it with us. I'll not hold my breath.

Good luck with that.
I hit a roadblock when I ask for evidence.
Some of these opinions thrown out on Casebook are rooted in faith. And as experience shows, proof and faith are not mutually compatible.

[Observer]

We know she was a maid, or a charwoman, she worked in coffee shop and she cleaned rooms since arriving in London, and we have someone hint she might have had to resort to desperate measures on occasion. She was a maid near Hyde Park at one time. And we know she worked cleaning rooms that last day, and we know she left the lodging house with money. 2 things the prior Canonicals did not have...legitimate work, or money for their doss. Thats why they were desperate enough to solicit...and why Liz wasnt.

Employment at the coffee shop ended 18 years before her death. The sum total of evidence which points to her her charring, cleaning rooms at the time of her death amounts to the 6d she earned on the 29th september 1888.

If you have any other evidence which points to Liz Stride being in regular employment at the time of her death feel free to share it with us. I'll not hold my breath.

Liz Stride recieved financial help from the Swedish Church on two occasions during the month she was murdered. Not much of a pointer to being in regular employment, I'd say.

Kidney saw Liz Stride for the last time on the 25th September, he said "it was the drink that made her go away". He also added that she had done this often. It's alledged that he padlocked her in the house, to keep her from the drink. She had also appeared at the Magistrates court on a number of occasions for being drunk and disorderly. Lets face it Liz Stride loved a drink. And yet she held down regular employment?

There's no doubt in my mind that the very little work she did do, if any, was supplemented by money earned from prostitution. She was in the company of at least three men on the night of her murder. Liz was on the rocky road to ruin, just as the other victims were. They all took chances, and all ended up the same way. May they rest in peace.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Wow yall, wow.

Got me to break out some the local venacular. We need a 'send other posters a valium' button. Peace love and unity. If our ridiculous obsessions with The White Chapel Murderes can't bring us together then there really is no hope and we'll all be living in a world with Van Gough as "JTR". Get it together everyone. People aren't counting on us, but they need us regardless. We gotta come together for all the stupid people who don't have an unhealthy obsession with this case. I have no problem with admitting it. All, embrace it! Let's take it to those normies! Excelsior!!!

[Cogidubnus]

The beauty from Pflugerville

Lyn, if a woman is hanging around the outside of the victorian equivalent of a nightclub at one in the morning, of course she was a brass. Would you be hanging around an alleyway outside a nightclub at one in the morning? of course you wouldn't.

But i appreciate you are making me prove every point, lol.Best wishes, Bob.

Thought I'd followed this thread pretty closely, but only just (very belatedly) spotted this post and nearly spat me tea all over the keyboard...it must be that cute chin!

All the best

Dave

[Michael W Richards]

"Which brings me to Observer..."

I'm honoured

" so after this post I am concealing your posts. But just so you dont make errors with your spelling as well as most everything else"

Concealing my post's. Thank God for that.

I'll tell you what, my spelling and grammer is poor to say the least, but you're not a kick in the backside behind me

I quote you

"Do you have proof that no-one else knows about that would make your statement regarding Liz Stride "punting"...how did you put it....oh yeah, more believable than other suggestions?"


Ehhhhhhh??? Come again

Also

"I dont recall ever saying that Fenians killed Liz Stride or anyone else."

I know that. And I told you my "veiled insults" were not aimed at you. So why are you posting me complaining about " veiled Insults"?

There is no proof that Sein Fein were involved in the murder of Kate Eddowes.

There is no proof, absolutely no proof, that Liz Stride was in regular employment at the time of her death. Liz Stride did however have a record for soliciting.

Bye Bye. You remain deluded now.

Ok, I admit I had to take a look at what youve come out with now ....and it seems youve solved the issue!!....if Liz Stride was a registered prostitute in Sweden in 1865, then it must mean she was still one in 1888!!...even though she worked diligently to find legitimate work in Sweden and had her name stricken from the list before emigrating.

Is her known history irrelevant, or just less likely to be as accurate as your opinion about her?

We know she was a maid, or a charwoman, she worked in coffee shop and she cleaned rooms since arriving in London, and we have someone hint she might have had to resort to desperate measures on occasion. She was a maid near Hyde Park at one time. And we know she worked cleaning rooms that last day, and we know she left the lodging house with money. 2 things the prior Canonicals did not have...legitimate work, or money for their doss. Thats why they were desperate enough to solicit...and why Liz wasnt.

But if you think all that we know pales in comparison to what you think,..well then.... continue to disregard anything that you find less helpful to your argument.

There is not one bit of evidence that Liz Stride ever solicited in London, although she may well have on occasion. D & D's dont count. Stating that she did is mere guesswork on your part. Your forte. So, I suppose Ill have to remain deluded by the known facts and you can continue to play your guessing games... without any evidence to back anything you state with such certainly.

Vi ses

[Observer]

"Which brings me to Observer..."

I'm honoured

" so after this post I am concealing your posts. But just so you dont make errors with your spelling as well as most everything else"

Concealing my post's. Thank God for that.

I'll tell you what, my spelling and grammer is poor to say the least, but you're not a kick in the backside behind me

I quote you

"Do you have proof that no-one else knows about that would make your statement regarding Liz Stride "punting"...how did you put it....oh yeah, more believable than other suggestions?"


Ehhhhhhh??? Come again

Also

"I dont recall ever saying that Fenians killed Liz Stride or anyone else."

I know that. And I told you my "veiled insults" were not aimed at you. So why are you posting me complaining about " veiled Insults"?

There is no proof that Sein Fein were involved in the murder of Kate Eddowes.

There is no proof, absolutely no proof, that Liz Stride was in regular employment at the time of her death. Liz Stride did however have a record for soliciting.

Bye Bye. You remain deluded now.

[Michael W Richards]

First off in response to Mr Lucky, if the authorities didnt believe the man that killed Polly and Annie had medical student qualifications, then why did they aggressively investigate medical students as potential suspects after Chapmans murder? Not just one...but a few. They believed the man had skills that would match those of a med student...I said it differently but within the same context. So argue all you like....the comment is very defensible.

You can believe what you like about anyones opinion of the day, its really nothing to me personally, but when you state your take on things as "the facts" and disparage anyone who finds existing contrary evidence, well...

Which brings me to Observer... so this all comes down to a belief that your opinion is better than everyone elses? Well then, no point in debating these issues with you then, so after this post I am concealing your posts. But just so you dont make errors with your spelling as well as most everything else...its Fenians, Not Fennians, and I dont recall ever saying that Fenians killed Liz Stride or anyone else. I do recall stating that the Irish Self Rule issue was on the minds of about every senior official assigned to these cases and the issues were assassination attempts on government officials.....and that these cases were a drop in the proverbial bucket of woes at that time. But you dont see the likelihood that there could be any connection to those issues and the 2 dead women who had Irish links....fine, noted. And thanks for reminding me about what Diemshutz said, it has nothing to do with what actually happened necessarily, but its always nice to see accurate quotes.

Do you have proof that no-one else knows about that would make your statement regarding Liz Stride "punting" ...how did you put it....oh yeah, more believable than other suggestions? I wonder if this was your great, great grandmother whether you would take offense at the disrespectful references to what was surely a last resort to women like Liz.....well at least ones we know didnt have steady work at the time....like Liz had.

The question is obviously rhetorical, I wont be seeing the answer. Best of luck to you.

[Observer]

Never heard of this, who would issue the ticket?

The casual wards in various other towns.

As I said the tickets in question are a long shot.

Would that not defeat the purpose of the Casual Ward, that you essentially earn your keep?
On the same train of thought then, could tickets not be issued for the Whitechapel Refuge on the same basis?

The London wards did not issue them.

They were issued to those on the move who had to pass through London on their way to another location. For example, someone tramping from Dover to Colchester. As I said, it was a way for the London wards to get them on their way in the early morning. If they were forced to do the required work, and stay in the casual ward until midday or later, then they were less likely to move on. I thought I had bookmarked the article in question, but it appears I did not. Silly me people will think I'm making this all up!

I'm inclined to think the police would have made inquiries at the Mile End Casual Ward as part of their investigation.

I'm sure they did. The trouble is theres no record of their enquiries should they have visited Mile End Casual Ward.

In reading up on Casual Wards, they were not a refuge of choice.

Tell that to Mike

Fibbing to a loved one, your significant other, is part of survival in the East End. Hence the fibs about going to Bermondsey to obtain money. Obviously, when she returns to John with coin in her hand she feels like pacifying him with the story of it being a loan rather than from turning a trick.
This is purely understandable, as is the possibility she never went to the Casual Ward, for whatever reason

I think some of the inexactitudes ascribed to John Kelly more likely originated with Kate, and for mostly mundane reason's.

I'd agree. This and the fact that Kelly himself admitted he was befuddled regarding the order of events. Lets not forget the man must have been under enormous stress, his partner murdered and mutilated. Lord only knows what was going through the poor man's mind. I'd say the last thing he required was questions shot at him from all directions. Of course some of those questions were very much near to the knuckle. I'm thinking of the suggestion that he was living off the proceeds of immoral earnings.

Regards

Observer

[Observer]

Would you happen to have a source that verifies your claim that a special ticket allowed a casual ward visitor to avoid any work before discharge....seems contrary to any records Ive read about these institutions.

No I have no evidence regarding special tickets I made it all up. No different from involving The Fennians in the Whitechapel murders though. Also, regarding the casual ward and those tickets of leave, If it's contrary to what you've read on the subject then that's it, it's rubbish.

However

Lets get one thing straight. No one who had to endure the ignominy of the casual ward would have hailed it as a feather in the cap of the Victorian establishments attempt to relieve the suffering of the desperately poor classes. Thats a fact. So I'm on safe ground when I posted that Eddowes would not have been a fan of that system.

So, if you've read one iota of what went on in the casual ward, then you should be agreeing with me that Eddowes would not have been a fan.

And your thinly veiled insults do not cover up your own predilection for off the cuff theorizing without any of the requisite evidence of course. "I doubt Eddowes was a great fan of the casual wards", "could the women have done this"...might this have happened,..maybe this was the case,... I suggest before you look disparagingly upon the "theorists" you might want to temper your own infractions.

Its amusing how many egg-throwers are covered by yolk.

Cheers

Thinly veiled? They wern't meant to be. Whenever have my insults been thinly veiled?

There is no harm in theorising. If I theorise, I like to think I remain in the parameters of believability. But then again I woukld say that wouldn't I?

However Mr Wickerman seems to agree that I keep my feet on the ground. Sorry to bring you into this Mr Wick!

I quote

"I do understand you are attempting to maintain as much of the storyline as possible, and you may be right"

I wrote

The above is a long shot I know, but I tend to look for ordinary mundane reasons for anomalies in press reports.

Mr Wick replied

"I'll drink to that!"

And

I didn't have you in mind when I composed ther above post, but what the £$!$ if the cap fits you wear it my freind.

But

Regarding available evidence, when have you ever bothered about available evidence when you take off on one of your half baked theories?

I'll tell you what Mike, regarding the Whitechapel murders, there are no Fennians involved, no Ochrana. Stride was found by Deimschutz as near to 1:00 a.m. as damn it. The only thing on Liz Strides mind as she set out on the night of 29th September 1888 was how many punters she could fit in. Need I go on?

Regards

Observer