Was Stride Really a JtR Victim?

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

So....we cannot state with any real conviction that she was soliciting. Its possible....so are many other answers.

[I]True, but what other reason(s) are likely and are supported?

the only logical conclusion based on that evidence is that she was in the company of someone she knew well.

It maybe a logical one, but not the only logical one. Alcohol and rain might have some factor. Rent in arrears.


*but I can assure you that these are not easy answer crimes.

I can pretty much get behind that.
My best regards[/QUOTE]

I think availability maybe a more important factor than people take into consideration. I'm not pro or anti "JTR" I'm still factoring. For clarity. Thanks Michael I'm glad you poked your head in here.

[Michael W Richards]

It would seem that its time for me to drag out that old reminder about what is used to classify a woman either an Unfortunate, or a Prostitute, in 1888.

There were in fact "registered" prostitutes, unlike the use of the term when Liz was one back in Goteborg around 1885-6, but police did have records of women that made their living exclusively by prostituting themselves. If I recall correctly they estimated that number at around 1200 in that district near the time of the murders. Then there are Unfortunates, who by definition were desperately poor, and unfortunately without regular income or a man to support them. They ate and slept in beds when they could,... and often that was accomplished by soliciting.

But some women did have work to provide income, and if the money exceeded their demands for alcohol, they had no need to stoop to what in the Victorian Era was almost unthinkable, publicly, to polite society.

Canonical Group:

Polly was soliciting by her own admission the night she is murdered, after earning her doss and drinking the money away several times. Annie was soliciting, and ill, admitting to a friend that she better shape up and try to get some money for her bed. Liz Stride was murdered after she had worked and been paid that afternoon, and she was in her own words recently "at work among the Jews." She is killed without any evidence that she was soliciting, without the requisite failure to earn enough for a bed, and she is sober...dressed decently and found with flowers on her jacket and sweets for her breath in her hand...outside a club populated at that time mostly by Russian, German or Polish Jews.

Kate Eddowes was killed within 45 minutes of being released from jail and in the opposite direction from her supposed "partner" John. If the Three Wisemen did actually see Kate, all we can say for sure is that she appeared friendly with the man. So....we cannot state with any real conviction that she was soliciting. Its possible....so are many other answers. Mary Kelly was killed in her own room, one that she rented in her own name while with Barnett....the ex who said he objected to her "working the streets". Since he lived there with her until the end of October, and we know that Maria Harvey stayed there until Nov 3rd, and Mary was seen out with Daniel Barnett one of those remaining evenings, one would almost have to conclude that she suddenly began bringing clients to her private room within that day or 2 remaining. Therefore, she likely did not bring men home as clients, and since she is found undressed and in bed in her own room, the only logical conclusion based on that evidence is that she was in the company of someone she knew well.

Summary:

It would appear that at least 3 of the women had been earning any money they made shortly before their deaths primarily as prostitutes, but only 2 were actively doing so at the time. We do not know what the circumstances of the other 2 women were at that time, we only know that we cannot state factually that they were soliciting.

If you accept the premise that one of the selection criteria of the killer of Polly and Annie was that they were out soliciting alone in the middle of the night and slightly compromised by their physical conditions at the time...which for me is quite reasonable,....then would that not be a factor in any future murders or attempts by their same killer? Isnt a man who seeks out lonely strangers a very likely suspect for those first 2 murders?

If so...then how could we say with any credibility that these five murders were connected to a single killer when we do not have the empirical evidence to substantiate the claim?

Anyone who tells you that you are theorizing and not adhering to the accepted truths regarding these murders when you offer a different suggestion on what may have occurred....has actually only accepted a more palatable theory themselves.

One crazy guy is easy to understand, and easy to see by their actions in retrospect...well, we have the retrospection, but I can assure you that these are not easy answer crimes.

My best regards

[lynn cates]

carnal knowledge

Hello Bob. Thanks. Almost missed this.

"As for the inference that she was a prostitute, Preston names her as Long Liz, implying that he knows her well."

OK. But how do we get from knowledge to carnal knowledge?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

welcome

Hello Jogo. Welcome to the boards.

Choral society?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

"It's more than a feeling . . ."

Hello DLDW.

"I'm not completely sold either way yet. Something feels wrong though."

You noticed that too?

Cheers.
LC

[bobh]

In support of the idea that Stride knew her killer, I would direct your attention to the fact that she had cachou's in her hand to sweeten her breath, surely this would only be for a lover or regular client, not your average 'quickie' so to speak.

Jogo, if the window was open, that cuts both ways with the idea, that she wanted to discourage him by not screaming loudly, just enough to discourage her attacker.

Bridewell, I have to say that I'm really really struggling with this coincidence, although you do say is is speculation,

Best wishes, Bob

[lynn cates]

"j T R"

Hello Bob. Interesting observation.

"Surely if she believed she was in the clutches of JTR she would have screamed the place down."

Of course, "JTR" was not discovered yet. And it was now about 3 weeks since the last killing.

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

That being the case, why would he even consider the yard as a suitable venue?

Perhaps he didn't consider it a suitable venue but if Stride was targetted personally, rather than at random, perhaps her killer thought it might be his only opportunity and that the risk was one which had to be taken. That (for me) would point the finger away from Kidney who might reasonably expect to have other, less risky, opportunities. The murder immediately preceding Stride was that of Annie Chapman, at whose inquest a witness by the name of Elizabeth Long claimed to have seen Chapman talking to a man who (if true) pretty much had to be her killer. Liz Long gives her evidence and two weeks later the next to die is Long Liz. Coincidence? Probably - but possibly not. That would explain the lack of mutilation (there's no suggestion that Elizabeth Long - as opposed to Stride -was a prostitute). Same killer (so carotid artery attack) but different motive (so no abdominal mutilation). Mistaken identity - but intending to silence a dangerous witness.

I speculate here of course, but not wholly without reason in my view.

[jogo]

In my opinion Stride has been killed by JtR.

Stride was looking for a new customer by waiting nearby the entrance of the choral society, followed by Jack the Ripper. The window was open, it was noisy, nobody would realise the murder. Jack attacks stride, she screams cause of fear, but nobody hears.

JtR hears the cart of Diemschütz coming nearer (a horse cart on cobble is very noisy), but thinks the cart passes by. So he cuts her throat, for some reason from the front and with the left hand. Then Diemschütz unexpectetly enters the yard and Jack hides into the darkness.

When Diemschütz found Stride and has gone to call for help Jack the Ripper fled. He has been disturbed and he was not satisfied, so he has to search a second victim. He knows that at any moment the MET police would be present in Whitechapel, so he had to cross the bounderies of the City of London. There he found Chatharina Eddowes at the quiet Mitre Square and completed his work.

After he killed Eddowes he went back home and lost a part of Eddowes apron accidentally at the Goulston-Street-Graffito-site.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

One more Bob

Is it not an assumption that Kidney abused her? It is not a popular thing to say ,but being murdered doesn't make you a good and honest person. But when a woman says hey he beats me, people tend to believe her without much question. Women are treacherous too.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Bob

As others have said, welcome to the boards...Personally the night of the "double event" drives me crazy...it also keeps me fascinated too - so much of the evidence can be interpreted more than one way...

As one who tries to argue issues either way, just to try to get a grip on them as much as anything else, I think you're asking all the right questions and expressing all the right doubts...but as Eric Morecombe was apt to say, not necessarily in the right order...

Some folk will always argue that whatever Liz Stride was actually doing that night is irrelevant...it's what JtR THOUGHT she was doing that counts...For what it's worth I think that's rather begging the question though...almost a circular argument...

I think if you're going to argue Kidney did it, you've got to provide a motive that transcends Tom Westcott's well argued dissertation...and to that extent Liz Stride's behaviour that night may well provide a clue...maybe the only clue, apart from the time discrepancies which just might make Schwartz's tale that of a witness to murder...

I don't pretend to be 100% convinced either way, but I currently tend to lean more your way than the other...

Whatever...hope you enjoy yourself as much on here as I do!

All the best

Dave

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Why murder her?

It is good policy. This all depends on the truthfullness of IS and accuracy of his translator(s). I'm not completely sold either way yet. Something feels wrong though. Not sure what it is yet. Lynn and Michael Richards are much more well versed in this than I. Just sat down at the table on this one.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Method

Well according to the data, which some scoff at, there were about 11 women murdered by having their throats cut in 87', 16 in 88', 11 in 89'. Make of that what you will. Those numbers may not be spot on as I am going off memory here, but it is very close to those. Subsequent and following years hover close to 10 or so. Oh these numbers are for London I think. Not just Whitechapel.

[bobh]

And one last point, before I send you all off to sleep, if Stride believed she was with JTR, and wouldn't go any further into the yard, why would he take the colossal risk of killing her near to the gateway, knowing that he would be unlikely to be able to complete his mutilations without discovery and possible capture, when he could have just walked away and been written off as a rough punter?

It just doesn't make sense to be that she was a JTR victim, the only evidence to suggest so is that she was a prostitute and had her throat cut, in the same area. As we already are told, Whitechapel was a den of iniquity, murder was a frequent occurrence, and I can't imagine the method being particularly uncommon. If it hadn't happened on the same night as the Eddowes killing, it would not have been linked with JTR.

Best wishes, Bob

[bobh]

One point has struck me. Stride's murder was in the middle of the sequence, when the prostitutes knew about what was happening to them, yet when Stride is pushed to the floor by BS Man, she screams three times, but not loudly. Surely of she believed she was in the clutches of JTR she would have screamed the place down, knowing that help was nearby.

To me this implies that she knew BS Man, either as a regular client or a lover, or even Kidney, and was trying to discourage him from assaulting her, but not get him arrested or lynched.