Sequence of comings & goings - Stride

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thanks, Caroline!

Quite so. She may have added a bit and a bob here & there to make it seem more interesting and, therefore, it's a pity for us that she wasn't called as a witness at the inquest, but, on the whole, she comes across as an honest & decent witness.

That's the unfortunate truth, indeed.

Maybe we could create a nice theory around that, Caz, or are we too much of a fringe folk for that?

Looking at your avatar Frank I’d agree that yours was an excellent post especially for someone so young.

[FrankO]

Another brilliant post, Frank!

Thanks, Caroline!

Mrs Mortimer comes across as your average decent witness, just giving her account of what she saw and heard and what she didn't, and how she believed the murder could have been committed with no witnesses. Moreover, her account gives ample independent support to Louis D's, who also comes across as an honest and decent witness, who had the considerable misfortune, along with his poor pony, to discover 'another' murder of a defenceless woman, whose presence in that location was, and remains, a mystery.

Quite so. She may have added a bit and a bob here & there to make it seem more interesting and, therefore, it's a pity for us that she wasn't called as a witness at the inquest, but, on the whole, she comes across as an honest & decent witness.

In the absence of enough information to ascertain what really happened in these cases, theorists have the luxury of making a liar or conspirator - or even a killer in one instance - of the first male witness on the scene.

That's the unfortunate truth, indeed.

I wonder what they'd have done with their time if the murders had all been discovered by women who had no reason to lie about the time or the circumstances, to protect themselves or anyone else?

Maybe we could create a nice theory around that, Caz, or are we too much of a fringe folk for that?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yes - if you manage to flog all those bags and shoes on ebay.

And no - the virtual quiz was a shocker this time. Pop music from the last two decades? Forget it. Not a bit like our local monthly pub quiz, which we used to win so often it became embarrassing so we stopped doing it.

Love,

Caz
X

The curse of quizzes - current 'music,' so-called celebrities and reality TV.

[caz]

Do you think I’m made of money?

Did you win your quiz?

Yes - if you manage to flog all those bags and shoes on ebay.

And no - the virtual quiz was a shocker this time. Pop music from the last two decades? Forget it. Not a bit like our local monthly pub quiz, which we used to win so often it became embarrassing so we stopped doing it.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

The only "after 1" referring to the going indoors I read, is the one you added, Michael. I have no problems reading that. As I have no problems reading the part you ignore, which is, obviously (although it seems, not to you) "It was soon after one o'clock when I went out".

Intersting also is that you discard another version of a statement of a woman living at the same address the Daily News of 1 October:

"A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard the pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband. Thus, presuming that the body did not lay in the yard when the policeman passed-and it could hardly, it is thought, have escaped his notice-and presuming also that the assassin and his victim did not enter the yard while the woman stood at the door, it follows that they must have entered it within a minute or two before the arrival of the pony trap. If this be a correct surmise, it is easy to understand that the criminal may have been interrupted at his work. The man who drove the cart says he thinks it quite possible that after he had entered the yard the assassin may have fled out of it, having lurked in the gloom until a favourable moment arrived."

Even though the interview above is not quoted there's another interview with the a neighbour in the Evening News of 1 October:

"INTERVIEW WITH A NEIGHBOUR.
Some three doors from the gateway where the body of the first victim was discovered, I saw a clean, respectable-looking woman chatting with one or two neighbours. She was apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan, and formed a strong contrast to many of those around her. I got into conversation with her and found that she was one of the first on the spot.
TEN INCHES OF COLD STEEL.
"I was just about going to bed, sir, when I heard a call for the police. I ran to the door, and before I could open it I heard somebody say, 'Come out quick; there's a poor woman here that's had ten inches of cold steel in her.' I hurried out, and saw some two or three people standing in the gateway. Lewis, the man who looks after the Socialist Club at No. 40, was there, and his wife.
"Then I see a sight that turned me all sick and cold. There was the murdered woman a-lying on her side, with her throat cut across till her head seemed to be hanging by a bit of skin. Her legs was drawn up under her, and her head and the upper part of her body was soaked in blood. She was dressed in black as if she was in mourning for somebody.
MURDERED WITHIN SOUND OF MUSIC AND DANCING.
"Did you hear no sound of quarrelling, no cry for help?" I asked.
"Nothing of the sort, sir. I should think I must have heard it if the poor creature screamed at all, for I hadn't long come in from the door when I was roused, as I tell you, by that call for the police. But that was from the people as found the body. Mr. Lewis, who travels in cheap drapery things a bit now and again, had just drove into the yard when his horse shied at something that was lying in the corner. He thought 'twas a bundle of some kind till he got down from his cart and struck a light. Then he saw what it was and gave the alarm."
"Was the street quiet at the time?"
"Yes, there was hardly anybody moving about, except at the club. There was music and dancing going on there at the very time that that poor creature was being murdered at their very door, as one may say."
A MAN WITH A BLACK BAG!
" I suppose you did not notice a man and woman pass down the street while you were at the door?"
"No, sir. I think I should have noticed them if they had. Particularly if they'd been strangers, at that time o' night. I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand."
"Did you observe him closely, or notice anything in his appearance?"
"No, I didn't pay particular attention to him. He was respectably dressed, but was a stranger to me. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club., A good many young men goes there, of a Saturday night especially."

These 3 interviews/statments go together very well and, at the very least, suggest that they were one and the same woman, i.d. Mortimer. Only if you have an agenda, you might want to ignore (important parts) one or two of these articles. As you're doing.

If one would see them as all 3 coming from the same woman, one would get the picture of a woman who stood on her doorstep for 10 minutes from, say, 12:46 until about 12:56, then some 4 minutes later, as she was preparing for the night, heard a pony cart pass and shortly afterwards commotion and calls for police, after which she went out to see what was the matter and then found that she was one of the first on the crime spot, seeing only 2 or 3 people in the gateway.

But I guess that's just for the fringe. For people who really don't have even one theory...

Another brilliant post, Frank!

Mrs Mortimer comes across as your average decent witness, just giving her account of what she saw and heard and what she didn't, and how she believed the murder could have been committed with no witnesses. Moreover, her account gives ample independent support to Louis D's, who also comes across as an honest and decent witness, who had the considerable misfortune, along with his poor pony, to discover 'another' murder of a defenceless woman, whose presence in that location was, and remains, a mystery.

In the absence of enough information to ascertain what really happened in these cases, theorists have the luxury of making a liar or conspirator - or even a killer in one instance - of the first male witness on the scene. I wonder what they'd have done with their time if the murders had all been discovered by women who had no reason to lie about the time or the circumstances, to protect themselves or anyone else?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

If you're going to take that report literally, you have to take the good with the bad...

It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so.

Immediately? So she should see Stride and parcel man almost directly opposite her place - apparently she didn't.

Immediately after shortly before 12:45, implies she is on her doorstep by 12:45. No Schwartz incident reported.

As you suggest, we can't have this both ways, can we? If we want Mrs Mortimer on her doorstep at or shortly before 12.45, seeing and hearing nothing of the Schwartz incident, we can't reasonably have the pony and cart entering the yard between 12.40 and 12.45, and Stride's body being discovered, without PC Smith or Mrs M seeing or hearing a thing.

This is why all estimated times need to be treated with a great dollop of caution, especially when the witness had no good reason to make an exact note of the time, even assuming there was a timepiece they could have consulted. And how would they have known for a fact that any clock in their field of vision was 100% accurate in any case?

Any theory involving the murder or murderer is in danger of being wrong if the theorist sticks too rigidly to any of the times given, apart from perhaps Dr Blackwell's 1.16. At least he had every reason to note the time and no need to guess, but even he relied on the accuracy of his watch.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Because Schwartz was as dim as the other dim shitz at conspiring to pervert the course of justice, and the daft ha'p'orths only got away with it because the police were even dimmer shitz?

Do I win £5? And where's my bloody handbag, Mr Shoe Thief?

Love,

Caz
X

Do you think I’m made of money?

Did you win your quiz?

[Herlock Sholmes]

If you're going to take that report literally, you have to take the good with the bad...

It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so.

Immediately? So she should see Stride and parcel man almost directly opposite her place - apparently she didn't.

Immediately after shortly before 12:45, implies she is on her doorstep by 12:45. No Schwartz incident reported.

But we have yet another conflict. Mortimer and Smith and the time that he passed down Berner Street. Who do we think more likely to have been correct?

On the one hand a woman who, even if she did own a clock (which is certainly not proven,) would have had no reason to have logged the time as it was just a normal evening up until the commotion. A woman who in some reports had said that she’d been on her doorstep for nearly all of the 30 minutes from 12.30 until 1.00 and yet the more detailed version in the EN has her on her doorstep for no more than 10 minutes of that half an hour,

Or, on the other hand, a police man of good record on his beat just a minute or so after walking past a clock.

So I’d say that this indicates that Mortimer actually went on to her doorstep at something like 12.33 or 12.34 and she was there for maybe 10 minutes which has her back inside when Schwartz passed.

Nothing has been stretched, fabricated or exaggerated in the above and it provides a very simple, plausible explanation why Fanny didn’t see Schwartz.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I don't know for a fact, and I definitely don't know for a definitely ascertained fact.
However, Heshburg's comments sound to me like an inquisitive outsider, rather than a club member or guest.
Also, living at 20 or 28, he metaphorically did live 'up' Berner street, and thus if he had been at home at the time, he would have metaphorically 'come down' to the club.

What's your perspective?

“Yes; I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter”

It sounds to me like he was upstairs in the club unless there are any other reports that suggest that he might have been elsewhere?

[Herlock Sholmes]

It appears that the demand for conspiracy thinking greatly exceeds the supply.

Perhaps you could state what is that I'm 'reading into' this phrase, which supposedly deserves the oh-so convenient conspiracy label?
Who is conspiring to do what, and for what purpose?

I think you may have 'read-in' in me 'reading-in'.
For everyone else; is the irony of that lost on you?

You suggested that the phrase ‘it appears that’ indicated that the reporter was just piecing things together which suggested that less credence should be placed on that report. I was just pointing out that the phrase can mean “according to a witness.”

[Herlock Sholmes]

By 'left' you mean all evening, whereas the situation we are dealing with could be as little as a few minutes in the front room, ground floor.

What was the general case with the front door at 29 Hanbury street?

Are we at crossed purposes here?

What I’m saying is - yes the door would have been left unlocked during the day but it wouldn’t have been left open/ajar. Surely the same would have to apply to number 29 Hanbury Street.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I get some of my logic from 40 Berner street - when Eagle returned to the club at 12:40, the front door was locked and he had to use the side entrance.

Fanny most likely would have locked up by midnight, had she not any intention of going out.
Either that, or she may have heard the singing commence after the meeting, and decided that when household chores were done, she would treat herself to some of that, and decided not to lock-up at the normal time.

As for being outside previously, one argument for that is what she heard versus what she didn't hear.
She supposedly heard Smith walk by when inside, but did not hear the initial running out of Dutfield's Yard in search of police, including the cries of 'police!'.
It were only when a sizeable crowd had started to assemble, that she heard the commotion.
Thus; door open > door closed
Door open implies a previous visit to the doorstep.

Or, as per EN, she might have locked up when she went back inside at 12.45?

We can assume that the door was open or ajar. The fact that she heard some things and not others might easily be explained by what part of the house she was in at the time. If she was at the back of the house or even outside in the loo then she wouldn’t have heard what would have been audible from her front room.

Door open (I assume that you mean unlocked as opposed to wide open?) only implies that someone in the house had been outside at some point in the day. It doesn’t imply when that was. The last time that someone had left the house could have been 3 or 4 hours before?

[caz]

Because the ‘ear pressed to the door’ part was sarcasm. I however can see no reference that her door was open or ajar? I’m sure that most people in that crime-free area simply left there front doors ajar.

Yeah, I don't get the logic here, Herlock. It was also late at night at the very end of September. Fanny's husband was indoors. Why on earth would their front door have been open or even ajar, except for when Fanny was at the door, watching nothing in particular?

Mr Mortimer : Shut that bloody door, woman. There's a terrible draught in here and central heating hasn't been invented yet. I'll catch me death.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Six questions I’d like to ask on the cover up and on the suggestion that Schwartz lied as part of that cover-up to protect the club:

1. Why did Schwartz have the fracas outside of the club instead of saying that he heard a woman scream and that he then saw a man run from the yard (and away from the club?) Simples.

2. Why, when talking to the Star, did he put the knife in Pipeman’s hand rather than BS Man (the actual attacker?)

3. I’ve asked this before but if they were seeking to draw attention away from the club why not wrap the body in something, chuck it on the cart and dump her somewhere else?

4. If Diemschutz arrived earlier why did no one see or hear him and how could the conspirators have known that no one had seen him?

5. If the murder took place after any possible sightings and before Diemschutz arrived at 12.45 how did they a) agree how bad this might look on the club and b) come up with this plan, in such a short space of time?

6. If they did come up with a plan why didn’t they tell everyone about the ‘discovery’ time so that they wouldn’t raise suspicion by quoting different times to the police?

Because Schwartz was as dim as the other dim shitz at conspiring to pervert the course of justice, and the daft ha'p'orths only got away with it because the police were even dimmer shitz?

Do I win £5? And where's my bloody handbag, Mr Shoe Thief?

Love,

Caz
X

[FrankO]

"I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors, (after 1) and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by. (no cart and horse mentioned) I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the club-house, and on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the yard with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe any one enter the gates. It was soon after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the Board School.

I was told that the manager or steward of the club had discovered the woman on his return home in his pony cart. He drove through the gates, and my opinion is that he interrupted the murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart. If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him. It was almost incredible to me that the thing could have been done without the steward's wife hearing a noise, for she was sitting in the kitchen, from which a window opens four yards from the spot where the woman was found. The body was lying slightly on one side, with the legs a little drawn up as if in pain, the clothes being slightly disarranged, so that the legs were partly visible. The woman appeared to me to be respectable, judging by her clothes, and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets. A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.<sup>[1]

The highlights are for the reading impaired.</sup>

The only "after 1" referring to the going indoors I read, is the one you added, Michael. I have no problems reading that. As I have no problems reading the part you ignore, which is, obviously (although it seems, not to you) "It was soon after one o'clock when I went out".

Intersting also is that you discard another version of a statement of a woman living at the same address the Daily News of 1 October:

"A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard the pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband. Thus, presuming that the body did not lay in the yard when the policeman passed-and it could hardly, it is thought, have escaped his notice-and presuming also that the assassin and his victim did not enter the yard while the woman stood at the door, it follows that they must have entered it within a minute or two before the arrival of the pony trap. If this be a correct surmise, it is easy to understand that the criminal may have been interrupted at his work. The man who drove the cart says he thinks it quite possible that after he had entered the yard the assassin may have fled out of it, having lurked in the gloom until a favourable moment arrived."

Even though the interview above is not quoted there's another interview with the a neighbour in the Evening News of 1 October:

"INTERVIEW WITH A NEIGHBOUR.
Some three doors from the gateway where the body of the first victim was discovered, I saw a clean, respectable-looking woman chatting with one or two neighbours. She was apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan, and formed a strong contrast to many of those around her. I got into conversation with her and found that she was one of the first on the spot.
TEN INCHES OF COLD STEEL.
"I was just about going to bed, sir, when I heard a call for the police. I ran to the door, and before I could open it I heard somebody say, 'Come out quick; there's a poor woman here that's had ten inches of cold steel in her.' I hurried out, and saw some two or three people standing in the gateway. Lewis, the man who looks after the Socialist Club at No. 40, was there, and his wife.
"Then I see a sight that turned me all sick and cold. There was the murdered woman a-lying on her side, with her throat cut across till her head seemed to be hanging by a bit of skin. Her legs was drawn up under her, and her head and the upper part of her body was soaked in blood. She was dressed in black as if she was in mourning for somebody.
MURDERED WITHIN SOUND OF MUSIC AND DANCING.
"Did you hear no sound of quarrelling, no cry for help?" I asked.
"Nothing of the sort, sir. I should think I must have heard it if the poor creature screamed at all, for I hadn't long come in from the door when I was roused, as I tell you, by that call for the police. But that was from the people as found the body. Mr. Lewis, who travels in cheap drapery things a bit now and again, had just drove into the yard when his horse shied at something that was lying in the corner. He thought 'twas a bundle of some kind till he got down from his cart and struck a light. Then he saw what it was and gave the alarm."
"Was the street quiet at the time?"
"Yes, there was hardly anybody moving about, except at the club. There was music and dancing going on there at the very time that that poor creature was being murdered at their very door, as one may say."
A MAN WITH A BLACK BAG!
" I suppose you did not notice a man and woman pass down the street while you were at the door?"
"No, sir. I think I should have noticed them if they had. Particularly if they'd been strangers, at that time o' night. I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand."
"Did you observe him closely, or notice anything in his appearance?"
"No, I didn't pay particular attention to him. He was respectably dressed, but was a stranger to me. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club., A good many young men goes there, of a Saturday night especially."

These 3 interviews/statments go together very well and, at the very least, suggest that they were one and the same woman, i.d. Mortimer. Only if you have an agenda, you might want to ignore (important parts) one or two of these articles. As you're doing.

If one would see them as all 3 coming from the same woman, one would get the picture of a woman who stood on her doorstep for 10 minutes from, say, 12:46 until about 12:56, then some 4 minutes later, as she was preparing for the night, heard a pony cart pass and shortly afterwards commotion and calls for police, after which she went out to see what was the matter and then found that she was one of the first on the crime spot, seeing only 2 or 3 people in the gateway.

But I guess that's just for the fringe. For people who really don't have even one theory...