Sequence of comings & goings - Stride

[Michael W Richards]

Issac Kozebroski was interviewed that same night and said he was sent out "alone" by Louis or some other member, he also said it happened at 12:40. Louis did leave with someone named Issac[s], likely a surname, and they went out after 1.

Whats being suggested here is that we should ignore all evidence that doesnt affirm what unsubstantiated and uncorroborated witnesses claimed. Instead of using the majority of accounts, that directly dispute those unsubstantiated ones, and incorporate events and sounds that were neither seen nor heard by witnesses who could do both during that last half hour.

12:30 Lave at the gates, Fanny begins intermittent visits to her door. A Young couple is seen.
12:35: Stride seen with Parcel Man by Smith
12:40: Club attendees alerted to body, Louis is there, Issac K is told to go for help, as well as 2 as yet unidentified Jews, who meet Spooner and return.
12:40 Eagle arrives back, Lave is still at the gates. Neither see anything.
12:45:Brown sees young couple by School
12:50: Fanny goes to her door to stand there for 10 minutes.
12:55: She estimates she sees Goldstein walk past the gates, look in, and hurry along at about 12:
1:00am: Louis claims he arrives
Just after 1: Fanny hears a commotion, Louis and Issac[s] goes for help, Eagle goes another way to do the same. Issac K meets Eagle upon his return around 1:05.

Thats a readers digest overview. No Israel Schwartz, no Louis and Issac K running out together, the body is known of at around 12:40 by multiple sources, no BSM or Pipeman,...the only people seen or heard during that last 25 minutes are the young couple and Goldstein. The street was essentially deserted.

[Wickerman]

Hi Frank.

Some may notice that when we look at a sequence of events, a few 'myths' (posing as theories) are exploded.

Example: The 'Parcel-man' seen by PC Smith couldn't have been Wess leaving the print shop with a bunch of flyers, as we can see he left the club by the front door with his brother & another man long before 'Parcel-man' arrived on the scene.

We can also see which were the 'two Jews' who ran along Fairclough St. as I tried to impress on Michael - it was Diemschutz & Kozebrodski, confirmed by your analysis.

I do notice you have not included Packer?, when we include his statement we can see it is confirmed by PC Smith, and regardless of estimates of the size of the newspaper parcel, it must have been the parcel of grapes.

Good work, this analysis should be the basis for future studies of the activities in Berner St. that night.

[FrankO]

Couple of corrections, sorry...

[*]Smith arrives and sees Stride & companion opposite the club Stride, now alone, is standing at the entrance of the yard when Schwartz sees an altercation between Stride and a man who had been walking ahead of him

I should have written:
6 Smith arrives and sees Stride & companion opposite the club
7 Stride, now alone, is standing at the entrance of the yard when Schwartz sees an altercation between Stride and a man who had been walking ahead of him

[*]Edward Spooner arrives at the scene together with Diemshutz; Kozebrodski joins Eagle and they find P.C. Lamb; Mortimer enters the yard (she sees Spooner touch Stride’s face – Evening News, 1 October)

I should have written:
14 Edward Spooner arrives at the scene together with Diemshutz; Kozebrodski joins Eagle and they find P.C. Lamb
15 Mortimer enters the yard

[*]P.C. 426 is sent for Blackwell, Eagle for Inspector Pinhorn and blows his whistle

This should have been: P.C. 426 is sent for Blackwell, Eagle for Inspector Pinhorn and then Lamb blows his whistle

[FrankO]

Hi all,

Because of the ever-returning discussion on the timings of all the witnesses involved in the Stride case and also as a result of a post by Al Bundy's Eyes (#799) on the "Stride..a victim?" thread, I thought I'd give it a shot to reconstruct, at least, the sequence of comings and goings in and around Dutfield’s Yard.

As per the Evening News of 1 October “a young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises.” According to this same newspaper edition Mrs. Mortimer saw that “A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound.”
It seems that Mortimer spoke to the girl after the discovery of Stride’s lifeless body in the yard. And it could well be that Brown actually saw this girl with her boyfriend and not Stride. If we’re supposing this was the same couple, then:

1. this couple must have been standing there, just as Mortimer says, before and after the murder was committed and perhaps even during, although they may have moved a bit away from Berner Street while they were talking, still remaining within 50 yards of the yard
2. the couple were still there after the discovery, as it would seem both Mortimer and the Evening News talked to the girl about the period that they had been standing there
3. Mortimer doesn’t claim to have seen Brown pass, so it would seem that Mortimer wasn’t at her door when this happened; in other words, she must have come at her door after he passed
4. as neither Mortimer, Brown or the couple heard or saw anything of the Schwarz incident, the incident took place before the couple arrived at the corner of the board school

So, this is the sequence based on the above 4 points:

1. couple arrives at the corner of the board school
2. Brown passes and sees the couple
3. Mortimer comes to her door
4. Leon Goldstein passes
5. Mortimer goes back inside

The problematic period is between, say, 12:30 and the Schwartz incident.
We have quite a few things happening at or around 12:30 am:
- Charles Letchford arrives home
- William Wess, his brother and Louis Stansley leave the club by the steet door to go home
- Joseph Lave came out to get a breath of fresh air and stayed out for some 10 minutes
None of them saw each other or anyone else – or if they did, they didn’t say so.
Then there’s Morris Eagle who arrives back at the club at around 12:40 am

So, this may be the sequence based on the above:

1. Wess & company leave / Letchford arrives
2. Letchford arrives / Wess & company leave
3. Lave goes outside (and remains there for 5 to 10 minutes)
4. Eagle returns to the club

Then we’re left with the arrival of Stride & companion in the vicinity of the club, followed by Smith’s arrival when he sees them opposite the yard and the Schwartz incident, that must have taken place before the couple seen by Brown & Mortimer arrives at the corner of the board school. Since the men above don’t mention Smith and/or Stride & companion and Smith only mentions Stride & companion and none of the above, it seems logical that Stride arrives at the scene after Eagle returns to the club.

So, the most logical sequence based on the above seems:

1. Stride & companion arrive close to the club
2. Smith arrives and sees Stride & companion opposite the club
3. Stride, now alone, is standing at the entrance of the yard when Schwartz sees an altercation commence between Stride and a man who had been walking ahead of him

The complete sequence, including the period after the discovery of Stride’s body, is then as follows:

1. Wess & company leave / Letchford arrives
2. Letchford arrives / Wess & company leave
3. Lave goes outside (and remains there for 5 to 10 minutes)
4. Eagle returns to the club
5. Stride & companion arrive close to the club
6. Smith arrives and sees Stride & companion opposite the club Stride, now alone, is standing at the entrance of the yard when Schwartz sees an altercation between Stride and a man who had been walking ahead of him
7. couple arrives at the corner of the board school
8. Brown passes and sees the couple
9. Mortimer comes to her door
10. Leon Goldstein passes the club
11. Mortimer goes back inside
12. Louis Diemshutz arrives in the yard and discovers Stride
13. Diemshutz & Kozebrodski run south searching for a policeman, Eagle north
14. Edward Spooner arrives at the scene together with Diemshutz; Kozebrodski joins Eagle and they find P.C. Lamb; Mortimer enters the yard (she sees Spooner touch Stride’s face – Evening News, 1 October)
15. P.C. Lamb arrives, followed by another P.C. (426 H)
16. P.C. 426 is sent for Blackwell, Eagle for Inspector Pinhorn and blows his whistle
17. P.C. Albert Collins arrives as a result of the whistle (Smith sees 2 constables on his arrival and PC 426 isn’t at the scene then)
18. P.C. Smith arrives at the scene
19. As Edward Johnson, Blackwell’s assistant, arrives with PC 426, Smith leaves to get the ambulance
20. Lamb closes the gates
21. Dr. Blackwell arrives at the scene
22. Inspector Pinhorn arrives
23. Dr. Phillips arrives

I’ve left the times out so they can't get in the way, but if we want to put times to each coming or going, I think that everything should start with Blackwell’s timing, as he consulted his watch when he arrived in the yard. Furthermore, I’m not claiming that the list above MUST be correct, so anybody who wants to have a go at it, be my guest. And, of course, if we'd assume that Brown did see Stride & companion and not the couple Mortimer spoke to, then something might change.

All the best,
Frank