Sequence of comings & goings - Stride

[FrankO]

Which takes him up to 12.55 talking to the young woman before seeing men running. He’s only out by 10 minutes or so.

Indeed, Herlock. Spooner's timing of 12.55 AM is much more in line with Lamb's arrival at the scene than his timing of 12.35. As I've said before, if we'd go with his latter estimate, his account would raise quite some questions.

[FrankO]

Then we have Hoschberg/Henschberg:

“It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown,”

More guesswork. What reason would he have had to log the exact time? None I’d say. And we know that no policeman’s whistle was blown that early. So I’d say we have another mistaken witness here. No mystery all unless you want to find one.

I have little doubt that Heshburg 'mis-guessed' the time, Herlock, but there is reason to thiink he was in the yard earlier than Lamb: he saw only 2 or 3 people in the gateway (which is the same amount as mentioned by Mortimer). I think he may have come out after hearing commotion/calls for police instead of a whistle. Not certain, though.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Then we have Hoschberg/Henschberg:

“It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown,”

More guesswork. What reason would he have had to log the exact time? None I’d say. And we know that no policeman’s whistle was blown that early. So I’d say we have another mistaken witness here. No mystery all unless you want to find one.

[Herlock Sholmes]

We can make it more exact (than the above), Michael. The Morning Advertiser wrote:
"I left home about half-past eleven on Saturday morning, and returned home exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I noticed the time at Harris's tobacco shop at the corner of Commercial-road and Berner-street. It was one o'clock." So, when he passed the shop, (he saw) it was one o'clock, which means that when he turned into the yard, it was 1 o'clock and half a minute or so.

How does it contradict Fanny Mortimer's statements, Michael?

"It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard the pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband."

Only if you'd insist that she came to her doorstep at 12:44/12:45 and went back in at 12:54/12:55, she would have heard the pony cart pass at 12:58/12:59 am. But, since she didn't see Kozebrodski leave the yard in search of a policeman, she didn't see the 2 Jews who found Spooner, she didn't see the 3 Jews or Spooner return to the yard a minute or 2 later, she didn't see Heshburg pass her door on his way to the yard, we can safely say that she only went to her doorstep at 12:46 or so, so she would have heard the pony cart at 1 am or half a minute after.

"Mrs. Mortimer, living at 36, Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy, says: I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by. I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the clubhouse, and on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the gates with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe anyone enter the gates. It was just after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road."

Only if you're taking the first "one o'clock" litterally and don't want to admit it could have been a minute (or a couple of) before one o'clock that she went back inside (just like the other statement indirectly says), then it would "contradict" Diemshutz's statement. But, otherwise, it fits quite well with Diemshutz.

I’d say that Spooner can safely be dismissed as a ‘contradicting’ witness too Frank:

“Stated that between 12.30am and 1.00am, 30th September 1888, he was standing with a young woman outside the Beehive public house on the corner of Christian Street and Fairclough Street. After talking for about 25 minutes...”

Which takes him up to 12.55 talking to the young woman before seeing men running. He’s only out by 10 minutes or so. Then...

“Spooner reckoned he was there for about five minutes before a constable (PC Henry Lamb) arrived.”

Which pretty much seals the deal. Another witness that was simply mistaken. After all, he was only estimating his time.

[Herlock Sholmes]

. So, when he passed the shop, (he saw) it was one o'clock, which means that when he turned into the yard, it was 1 o'clock and half a minute or so

Exactly Frank. I know my map reading skills aren’t great but the club wasn’t that far from the corner that he couldn’t have got there while it was still 1.00. Another mystery killed. What’s the betting that it will still get trotted out?

[FrankO]

This of course contradicts Issac Kozebrodski, members Gillen and Heschberg, Spooner and Fanny Mortimer.

I am still curious about who this Gillen is and what he stated, so could you point me to his statement(s), Michael?
I think you mean Gilleman or Gildeman(n), but I can't find anything about him, other than what Eagle said about him.

[FrankO]

"Lewis Dienishitz [Diemschutz], having affirmed, deposed: I reside at No. 40 Berner-street, and am steward of the International Workmen's Club. I am married, and my wife lives at the club too, and assists in the management. On Saturday I left home about half-past eleven in the morning, and returned exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning".

Shall we proceed with that point now established?

We can make it more exact (than the above), Michael. The Morning Advertiser wrote:
"I left home about half-past eleven on Saturday morning, and returned home exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning. I noticed the time at Harris's tobacco shop at the corner of Commercial-road and Berner-street. It was one o'clock." So, when he passed the shop, (he saw) it was one o'clock, which means that when he turned into the yard, it was 1 o'clock and half a minute or so.

This of course contradicts Issac Kozebrodski, members Gillen and Heschberg, Spooner and Fanny Mortimer.

How does it contradict Fanny Mortimer's statements, Michael?

"It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard the pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband."

Only if you'd insist that she came to her doorstep at 12:44/12:45 and went back in at 12:54/12:55, she would have heard the pony cart pass at 12:58/12:59 am. But, since she didn't see Kozebrodski leave the yard in search of a policeman, she didn't see the 2 Jews who found Spooner, she didn't see the 3 Jews or Spooner return to the yard a minute or 2 later, she didn't see Heshburg pass her door on his way to the yard, we can safely say that she only went to her doorstep at 12:46 or so, so she would have heard the pony cart at 1 am or half a minute after.

"Mrs. Mortimer, living at 36, Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy, says: I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by. I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the clubhouse, and on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the gates with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe anyone enter the gates. It was just after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road."

Only if you're taking the first "one o'clock" litterally and don't want to admit it could have been a minute (or a couple of) before one o'clock that she went back inside (just like the other statement indirectly says), then it would "contradict" Diemshutz's statement. But, otherwise, it fits quite well with Diemshutz.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Six questions I’d like to ask on the cover up and on the suggestion that Schwartz lied as part of that cover-up to protect the club:

1. Why did Schwartz have the fracas outside of the club instead of saying that he heard a woman scream and that he then saw a man run from the yard (and away from the club?) Simples.

2. Why, when talking to the Star, did he put the knife in Pipeman’s hand rather than BS Man (the actual attacker?)

3. I’ve asked this before but if they were seeking to draw attention away from the club why not wrap the body in something, chuck it on the cart and dump her somewhere else?

4. If Diemschutz arrived earlier why did no one see or hear him and how could the conspirators have known that no one had seen him?

5. If the murder took place after any possible sightings and before Diemschutz arrived at 12.45 how did they a) agree how bad this might look on the club and b) come up with this plan, in such a short space of time?

6. If they did come up with a plan why didn’t they tell everyone about the ‘discovery’ time so that they wouldn’t raise suspicion by quoting different times to the police?

[Herlock Sholmes]

And of course, if Fanny heard a horse and cart some four minutes after locking up and retiring for the night, around 1am, and remarked on the fact to her husband, it begs the question why she didn't hear one 15 to 20 minutes earlier, if that was when Diemschutz actually arrived and discovered Stride's body. Wasn't Fanny meant to have spent most of that half hour, between 12.30 and 1am at her open front door, watching the world go by? Even if she missed seeing the horse and cart around 12.40 to 12.45, because she happened to be back inside at the time, would she not at least have heard it, whether the door was open or closed? More understandable that she wouldn't have seen or heard the Schwartz incident for the same reason - that she was inside at that time, arguably with the door closed against the chill night air if she went in for more than just a minute or two.

Isn't this a case of Michael wanting to have his cake and eat it? Far more logical if Fanny saw Goldstein pass by around 12.55, just as she was about to lock up for the night, then heard the horse and cart approaching the yard just on or after 1am, followed swiftly by all the commotion.

Love,

Caz
X

She was supposed to have spent most of the 30 minutes on her doorstep but, if what she said was correct, then a) thats 15 minutes of the 30 gone for a start as she had to be inside before going outside, not to mention the 5 minutes or so after she’d gone back in at 12.55 so that’s 20 minutes inside out of 30 (hardly nearly the whole time?) and b) we have to accept that a Constable on a beat who had just passed a clock can’t even get a time close to correct. And yet for some Fanny is trotted out as a model of accuracy and trusted over Smith.

One thing that I couldn’t understand earlier in these 2 threads was that if Smith was correct, meaning that Fanny went back inside at 12.40-12.45, how did she see Goldstein at 12.55. It was a point made by Michael actually. But then we find that neither Mortimer or Goldstein gave a time for when he walked along Berner Street. So she could have seen him at 12.40 before she went back inside.

[caz]

Ok.

She heard the measured tread of a PC. She would have been entirely familiar a policeman’s tread as one passed her house several times a day, 24/7 and 365 days a year. I’d bet that everyone at the time could recognise a policeman’s tread with a high degree of accuracy.

Obviously she didn’t see the cart but she heard a cart and she would have known what one sounded like. Of course we can’t say for certain that this was Diemschutz but we have to ask how many horses and carts would have been driving around in a backstreet at around 1am? We also have to point out how lucky our conspirator Diemschutz was. He ‘lies’ to the police about a murder that’s undoubtedly going to be seen as by the ripper (and so high profile) and that’s taken place in the yard of a club of which he’s a Steward by telling them he’d arrived back later than he actually did. And conveniently for him another horse and cart passes as just the time that he’d said that he’d arrived. And not only that someone hears it. But conveniently no one sees him arriving back on his horse and cart at 12.45ish.

And of course, if Fanny heard a horse and cart some four minutes after locking up and retiring for the night, around 1am, and remarked on the fact to her husband, it begs the question why she didn't hear one 15 to 20 minutes earlier, if that was when Diemschutz actually arrived and discovered Stride's body. Wasn't Fanny meant to have spent most of that half hour, between 12.30 and 1am at her open front door, watching the world go by? Even if she missed seeing the horse and cart around 12.40 to 12.45, because she happened to be back inside at the time, would she not at least have heard it, whether the door was open or closed? More understandable that she wouldn't have seen or heard the Schwartz incident for the same reason - that she was inside at that time, arguably with the door closed against the chill night air if she went in for more than just a minute or two.

Isn't this a case of Michael wanting to have his cake and eat it? Far more logical if Fanny saw Goldstein pass by around 12.55, just as she was about to lock up for the night, then heard the horse and cart approaching the yard just on or after 1am, followed swiftly by all the commotion.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

What are the odds that every knife wielding criminal but this Jack fellow leaves town for 2 1/2 months? What are the odds of seeing regular violent knife crimes in the most violent crime ridden part of London, when knives are the most common weapon?

Hang on, Michael. You make it sound like you have actual statistics to show that dirt poor women out alone at night during that period were in constant danger from knife wielding criminals, who regularly committed violent knife crimes on these defenceless females for no apparent reason or gain. You bleat on about everyone else lacking the evidence to support their exploration of the possibilities, so where is yours? Why on earth would the whole world have stopped in its tracks to ask who the hell could be murdering these poor women down Whitechapel way, one after another, if it was recognisably just business as usual - nothing to see here but the regular mindless weekend thuggery towards women, which they had all come to expect?

What are the odds that the man preying on working street women happens to show up in a small courtyard, in someones room, likely while they were sleeping?

Not much point in calculating those odds if a man preying on working street women could just as easily have been picked up by Kelly and invited back to her room. She obviously had nobody else staying there that night, so she was free to entertain Blotchy, or indeed anyone else who might have provided a bit of company, a bite to eat, some booze and - with luck - a bit towards her rent arrears too. I assume Bowyer was sent to try and collect some, when he discovered her corpse, and wasn't bringing her a full English breakfast.

This has become tedious. Its one thing to debate actual evidence, its quite another to deal with imagination and preconceptions.

I'd suggest you take a good long look in the mirror. I'm beginning to wonder what 'actual evidence' you have for any of your confident assertions.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yes. A cart and horse did pass by. Fanny didnt see it, she couldnt know which way it was going, and she didnt see who owned the boots she heard earlier either. She, like you..preferred guessing about those.

Ok.

She heard the measured tread of a PC. She would have been entirely familiar a policeman’s tread as one passed her house several times a day, 24/7 and 365 days a year. I’d bet that everyone at the time could recognise a policeman’s tread with a high degree of accuracy.

Obviously she didn’t see the cart but she heard a cart and she would have known what one sounded like. Of course we can’t say for certain that this was Diemschutz but we have to ask how many horses and carts would have been driving around in a backstreet at around 1am? We also have to point out how lucky our conspirator Diemschutz was. He ‘lies’ to the police about a murder that’s undoubtedly going to be seen as by the ripper (and so high profile) and that’s taken place in the yard of a club of which he’s a Steward by telling them he’d arrived back later than he actually did. And conveniently for him another horse and cart passes as just the time that he’d said that he’d arrived. And not only that someone hears it. But conveniently no one sees him arriving back on his horse and cart at 12.45ish.

[Herlock Sholmes]

ANY evidence Herlock, just one shred of some,...which we both know doesnt exist. I accept what is and you ponder a myriad of things that are driven basically by imagination and a desire to seem impartial, or to help propagate this killer of at least Five drooling madman premise. The ONLY premise that has for over 130 years been unprovable. And yet im the one following hollow leads....

Ive answered this non-point on the other thread (actually I’ve answered it more than once.) We would not expect to see any evidence of interruption. Therefore the question is moot.

[Michael W Richards]

.

[I]she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat[/I] - means she can hear stuff on the street, from inside. That could well include things like; a man and woman quarrelling, a woman screaming but not loudly, a man yelling an anti-Semitic slur, a man with a knife shouting at another man, and possibly even a man running away, starting from down on the corner

Depends on what part of the house she was in I suppose but I’m guessing that you have ‘evidence’ that she stood with her ear pressed to the door for 20 minutes. Sometimes you pick up some sounds and not others it’s a fact of life. Oh and the horse and cart passed directly outside of her house of course.

Yes. A cart and horse did pass by. Fanny didnt see it, she couldnt know which way it was going, and she didnt see who owned the boots she heard earlier either. She, like you..preferred guessing about those.

[Michael W Richards]

Ok. Michael couldn’t answer this properly so I’ll ask you. What evidence of interruption would you expect to have been present had the killer been interrupted just after cutting Stride’s throat.

Whats the definition of the denial of the obvious?

ANY evidence Herlock, just one shred of some,...which we both know doesnt exist. I accept what is and you ponder a myriad of things that are driven basically by imagination and a desire to seem impartial, or to help propagate this killer of at least Five drooling madman premise. The ONLY premise that has for over 130 years been unprovable. And yet im the one following hollow leads....