Sequence of comings & goings - Stride

[Herlock Sholmes]

. In fact its possible that three men who were principals at the club, paid by the club for services or staying on the premises, lied about the time the body was discovered and the time

I know that Kozebrodski is 1 but who are the other 2?

[Michael W Richards]

Hi FrankO;

As per the Woodford Times of 5 and the Illustrated Police News of 6 October, Kozebrodski was familiarly known as “Isaacs”. These 2 newspapers wrote that Diemshutz discovered Stride’s body at around 1 am and that after returning to the yard & having alerted people inside the club, he went running for a policeman together with Kozebrodski, familiarly known as Isaacs. Make of that what you will, Michael.

Yes, the reports reflect what is said by Diemshutz, the statements also reflect what people perceived. Why would Issac K be commonly called Issac[s]? Who says he was? What about what he himself said?

I'm not doing anything of the sort, Michael. I just tried to make sense of the evidence and put all comings & goings in a sequence that does as little violence as possible to said evidence. It's just a starting point and I invited anyone who has something sensible to add or say about it to do just that.

You attempted to establish things that are based on no foundation in known evidence. Like the man running with Louis was someone from the club commonly called Issac[s]. Thats hearsay...anyone corroborate that? Issak K not only says he went alone, but he says that it was at the insistence of Louis or "some other member'", ...at around 12:40. Issac K had been back to the club since 12:30.

It’s not quite clear what Kozebrodski/Isaacs does; it’s possible that he returns with Diemshutz & Spooner to the yard and only then runs with Eagle in the direction of Commercial Road to find a policeman, but also that he leaves Diemshutz & Spooner, goes up Christian Street or Batty Street and, together with Eagle, finds Lamb. Since, according to Eagle’s own statement versions, he seems to have left for a policeman very shortly after Diemshutz & Kozebrodski/Isaacs left the yard in search of a policeman, the latter possibility seems more likely. That Kozebrodski only meets Eagle upon his return is contradicted by Lamb’s testimony, as he clearly stated that he 2 men came running towards him.


Actually its possible Issac K went by himself as he says he did, and that Spooner met 2 Jews of which neither is Diemshitz or Kozebrodski running for help at around 12:40-12:42, its possible that there was no sighting of Liz Stride being assaulted at around 12:45 since she was already cut and bleeding out, its possible that the fact that 4 witnesses gave the exact times and events were telling the truth.

In fact its possible that three men who were principals at the club, paid by the club for services or staying on the premises, lied about the time the body was discovered and the time lapse between that and when they actually personally sought help. Its possible they lied to avoid investigators suspecting someone from the club...which is the obvious conclusion based on an otherwise empty street.

Why doesnt Issac K say he went out with Louis, why does he say he went alone 20 minutes earlier than Louis says he went with Issac[s]? Why doesnt Spooner identify Louis as one of the men he met..they were both at the Inquest. Because Spooner met "2 jews" around 12:40, and Issac went out at 12:40 alone, and Louis didnt do diddly himself until after 1. Why does Eagle say "he couldnt be sure" a dying was there when he arrives back at 12:40? Because there actually was one there at that time but his bud Louis gave a different story which he feels he has to try and support. He doesnt see Lave either...even though Lave says he was standing right at the gates at that time.

Their Stories have holes, and they can be directly refuted by other independent witnesses whose stories do match each others.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Since that is plainly impossible (nothing wrong with your map reading) it's useful to check multiple reports rather than rely on one. The Times does get the street right in Baxter's summing up on the 24th, although he doesn't mention the house number that they were opposite;

"William Marshall, who lived at 64, Berner-street, was standing at his doorway from half-past 11 till midnight. About a quarter to 12 o'clock he saw the deceased talking to a man between Fairclough-street and Boyd-street"

Oh, and happy birthday for yesterday.

Thanks Joshua

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Mortimer doesn’t claim to have seen Brown pass, so it would seem that Mortimer wasn’t at her door when this happened; in other words, she must have come at her door after he passed

There are two reasons this doesn't necessarily follow.

One: Brown is up around the Fairclough/Berner intersection - passing through it in seconds - and it's dark.

Two: She did see him - she just didn't regard that as being an unusual event...

I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock on Sunday morning, and did not notice anything unusual.

It has to be remembered that Fanny Mortimer is not standing on her doorstep for much of that half-hour, carefully journaling the visible comings and goings, as though she were witnessing the lead-up to what would become a world famous event. It's just another night...

So, this is the sequence based on the above 4 points:

1. couple arrives at the corner of the board school
2. Brown passes and sees the couple
3. Mortimer comes to her door
4. Leon Goldstein passes
5. Mortimer goes back inside

Starting at #3, this is what we can ascertain from Mortimer's comment's...

1. Mortimer comes to her door
2. Leon Goldstein passes
3. Mortimer goes back inside
4. Some minutes pass (Smith, Stride, parcel man)
5. Mortimer goes back outside
6. Leon Goldstein passes
7. Mortimer goes back inside (and presumably 'shoots the bolts')

Evening News: I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand.
He was respectably dressed, but was a stranger to me. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club.

Central News: ...the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man, carrying a shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the Club, and then went round the corner by the Board School.

In this context, 'previously' refers in effect to between my #1 & 3.

4. Eagle returns to the club
5. Stride & companion arrive close to the club
6. Smith arrives and sees Stride & companion opposite the club

If Smith's beat lasts a minimum of 25 minutes, and a maximum of 30, we can work out an ETA and LTA based on the following times (which you may disagree with, of course).

4. 12:40:00
5. 12:42:30
6. 12:45:00

ETA: 1:10
LTA: 1:15

This is Smith in the Times, Oct 6:

At 1 o'clock I went to Berner-street in my ordinary round. I saw a crowd of people outside the gates of No. 40. I did not hear any cries of "Police." When I got there I saw constables 12 H R and 252 H. I then saw the deceased, and, on looking at her, found she was dead. I then went to the station for the ambulance. Dr. Blackwell's assistant came just as I was going away.

So the Johnston & Blackwell timings are already tight, but we also have this...

The Foreman: Was the man or the woman acting in a suspicious manner?
Smith: No.
Inspector Reid: Did you see these people more than once?
Smith: No. When I saw deceased lying on the ground I recognized her at once and made a report of what I had seen.

How long did that report take to write?
Whatever the case, Smith's testimony is arguably the most reliable in the entire case, because he wrote down what he had seen, soon after seeing it. The reliability of his info, arguably includes his times.

[Joshua Rogan]

No problem. The Times version in the Sourcebook says " She was on the pavement opposite No. 68 and between Christian Street and Boyd Street."

Since that is plainly impossible (nothing wrong with your map reading) it's useful to check multiple reports rather than rely on one. The Times does get the street right in Baxter's summing up on the 24th, although he doesn't mention the house number that they were opposite;

"William Marshall, who lived at 64, Berner-street, was standing at his doorway from half-past 11 till midnight. About a quarter to 12 o'clock he saw the deceased talking to a man between Fairclough-street and Boyd-street"

Oh, and happy birthday for yesterday.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Happy Birthday, Herlock!

Thanks Azarna.

[Azarna]

Happy Birthday, Herlock!

[Herlock Sholmes]

I have to agree with Dave, Herlock...here is the Telegraph's report of Marshall's comment;

" I saw the deceased on Saturday night last.
Where? - In our street, three doors from my house, about a quarter to twelve o'clock. She was on the pavement, opposite No. 58, between Fairclough-street and Boyd-street."

No problem. The Times version in the Sourcebook says " She was on the pavement opposite No. 68 and between Christian Street and Boyd Street."

[Herlock Sholmes]

King George IV public house at the northern corner of Boyd and Berner (68) was owned by Edmund Farrow.

Enjoy your day.

Cheers Dave

[Joshua Rogan]

I have to agree with Dave, Herlock...here is the Telegraph's report of Marshall's comment;

" I saw the deceased on Saturday night last.
Where? - In our street, three doors from my house, about a quarter to twelve o'clock. She was on the pavement, opposite No. 58, between Fairclough-street and Boyd-street."

[DJA]

King George IV public house at the northern corner of Boyd and Berner (68) was owned by Edmund Farrow.

Enjoy your day.

[DJA]

Trust 55 recovered.

I'm in my 70s.

Um ....... Happy Birthday!!!!!

[Herlock Sholmes]

On the point about what Marshall saw its not a better Inquest testimony that I need Dave it's new glasses. I missed one sentence about them walking.

My excuse is that I hit 55 today. Maybe my eyes got worse overnight?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Suggest sourcing a better Inquest testimony.

Missing Christian Street was an error on my part as I was just looking at the area around Boyd Street.

I'm using the Inquest testimony in the Sourcebook. Number 68 appears to have been the George IV pub on the corner of Boyd Street but what I don't get is how anyone could call that location between Boyd Street and Christian Street. To get to Christian Street from that pub you would have to turn left into Berner Street then right into Fairclough Street then go past Batty Street on the left to the next left (Christian Street) I'm not trying to make any major point it's just that I can't see why anyone would describe the location line that?

[DJA]

What is it with me and maps?!

I've just looked at Marshall's Inquest testimony and he says that Stride was opposite number 68 ( which according to the map I've looked at was a pub) and between Christian Street and Boyd Street. I can see Boyd Street but where is Christian Street?

....

Plus, when asked by the Coroner: "Would they pass the club?" Marshall said:" They had done so."

How could he have known that they'd passed the club when earlier he'd said that she was standing talking to a man and that what drew his attention to them was "...her standing there some time, and he was kissing her." From 11.30 until 12.00 when he went inside. How could he have known which way they'd come?

Suggest sourcing a better Inquest testimony.