Sequence of comings & goings - Stride

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yet he was happy to talk to The Star man, and supposedly on Backchurch Lane.
At least, that's what I've read.

Maybe it was only after thinking on the matter he started to fear for his safety? Maybe his wife said “what if they come looking for you?” I’m not saying that this is what happened just that it’s a possible explanation. Maybe others have other suggestions? Is it likely though that in the time that Schwartz talked to the police (resulting in them arresting and talking to one man on the strength of what he’d told them) and the Inquest on the next day they decided he was a useless witness? Does that make sense?

He was never heard from again, so that probably can't be determined.

Did anyone look for him after the Inquest was over?

Would Schwartz' story be more credible, if someone actually did hear something suspicious, rather than no one hearing (or seeing) anything of that nature?

I heard some muffled screams.
I heard a man shout something, but assumed it was someone from the club, so took no notice.
I heard the sound of a man running, but by the time I looked out my front window, he had gone by.

Why didn’t they get someone to say just that if there was a plot?

Wrong place at the wrong time.

But Schwartz was part of a plot?

Cant see a plot anywhere in this.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Or, that Schwartz, after being scared by the shout of ‘Lipski’ and after realising that he could be identified and therefore someone might want to silence him, simply became scared and decided that he didn’t want to give evidence at the Inquest.

Yet he was happy to talk to The Star man, and supposedly on Backchurch Lane.
At least, that's what I've read.

So he laid low until it was over?

He was never heard from again, so that probably can't be determined.

Or, that Fanny might have been at the rear part of the house when the yell occurred. Or that her husband might have been talking at the time? Why would one shout particularly stand out anyway? Didn’t someone say that the club got a bit rowdy? Shouts would have been par for the course.

Would Schwartz' story be more credible, if someone actually did hear something suspicious, rather than no one hearing (or seeing) anything of that nature?

I heard some muffled screams.
I heard a man shout something, but assumed it was someone from the club, so took no notice.
I heard the sound of a man running, but by the time I looked out my front window, he had gone by.

Or, if the Jewish Schwartz passing couldn’t have been a ‘coincidence’ (however unremarkable a coincidence in a area with a high Jewish population) then I assume that the passing of the Jewish Goldstein must also have been part of the plot?

Wrong place at the wrong time.

[Herlock Sholmes]

No problem. I should add that I have very different interpretation of that Daily/Evening News report.



The picture I have of the Stride murder and related events, goes well beyond the question as to it being another Ripper murder.

What is your picture of the murders?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Or, that Schwartz, after being scared by the shout of ‘Lipski’ and after realising that he could be identified and therefore someone might want to silence him, simply became scared and decided that he didn’t want to give evidence at the Inquest. So he laid low until it was over?

Or, that Fanny might have been at the rear part of the house when the yell occurred. Or that her husband might have been talking at the time? Why would one shout particularly stand out anyway? Didn’t someone say that the club got a bit rowdy? Shouts would have been par for the course.

Or, if the Jewish Schwartz passing couldn’t have been a ‘coincidence’ (however unremarkable a coincidence in a area with a high Jewish population) then I assume that the passing of the Jewish Goldstein must also have been part of the plot?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Thanks for these additions, NBFN!

No problem. I should add that I have very different interpretation of that Daily/Evening News report.

I think that's true, or, at least, it's true for me. Even the list of comings & goings in my opening post, all by itself, is a theory based on the fact that most witnesses people didn't have watches or a clock at that disposal and, therefore, guessed or estimated their timings, if they even had a reason to consult a watch or clock. The theory that I have is that the Ripper was driven by the mutilations; that he was, perhaps, too compulsive to care too much for planning his murders to any great extent. He took care to murder in the nightly hours of lull, when there were as few people about as possible. That is one reason why I have doubts that Stride was a Ripper victim, although I'm not married to these doubts.

The picture I have of the Stride murder and related events, goes well beyond the question as to it being another Ripper murder.

[Michael W Richards]

Seems to be some confusion about Israel Schwartz. There is no definitive source for where he had moved from that morning, but it is quite possible it was one of the cottages in the passageway at 40 Berner Street. It would be one of very few reasons for him being where he said he was at the hour he said he was there. Immigrant Jews didnt have households full of furniture and clothes, and he said he had been at the market until the time he claimed he was outside the club, and that he was just checking to see if his wife had finished moving their things to their new location. He said he was at the market around noon. And he said he saw what he says he saw at 12:45, which means he is saying his wife had more than 12 hours to move what likely amounted to some clothes and perhaps a stick or 2 of furniture. Is that credible? He says that he was checking on his wife....checking where? Why do we not know where he moved from? He claimed that he saw 2 men and Liz Stride alive outside the gates at 12:45, while many sources from inside the club say Liz was lying in the passageway at that time. He claimed one man yelled something across the street, yet Fanny Mortimer even if not at her door at that time claimed she could hear as little a sound as bootsteps from inside her house.

Finally Israel Schwartz and his story are not part of, in any fashion, the Inquest into How Liz Stride Dies, something unthinkable if they believed his story about seeing Liz assaulted a few feet from, and minutes before, her murder. His story if believed would in fact be from the last witness to see Stride alive if that was the case. And as such, quite important to the primary objective of the Inquest. We also know that at a later time we can place Israel at that club as friend of Woolf Wess's. Is that an indication that they may have been acquainted at the time of the murder as well? Quite possibly.

This Inquest begins with an odd choice for its 1st witness, someone who had supposedly left the area around 12:30. Israel would have been a great candidate for that lead spot, if believed. The last man to see Liz alive. Usually you will find that these events begin with the last person to see the victim, or the one that found them. In this case Louis is the one who claimed to find her, yet is usurped by Wess, who has nothing of any real value to offer to the question at hand.

I believe a story that has Israel at the meeting that night, perhaps having access to a cottage by virtue of a friendship with Wess, and seeing someone assault Liz inside the gates is a little more tenable. But that would indicate that someone from that property killed her. Something that is deflected by his offsite altercation story.

Was Israel using his theatrical flair to just help Wess out a bit, and is that why he isnt used in the Inquest? Good question.

Im sure the more knowledgeable members just believe Israel was used for the Inquest anyway, that Fanny could hear boots but not a yell, and that an immigrant jew outside an immigrant jew club after a meeting of immigrant jews is just a coincidence.

[FrankO]

For the sake of clarity, the bold blue and black text appeared in the Daily News, whereas in the Evening News of the same date, only the blue text appeared.

The only slight alteration being that she heard the pony cart pass the house becomes she heard Diemschitz's pony cart pass the house.

Thanks for these additions, NBFN!

To be fair, I think we all have one or two theories, it's just that some of those are conspiracy theories, whereas others are legitimate.

I think that's true, or, at least, it's true for me. Even the list of comings & goings in my opening post, all by itself, is a theory based on the fact that most witnesses people didn't have watches or a clock at that disposal and, therefore, guessed or estimated their timings, if they even had a reason to consult a watch or clock. The theory that I have is that the Ripper was driven by the mutilations; that he was, perhaps, too compulsive to care too much for planning his murders to any great extent. He took care to murder in the nightly hours of lull, when there were as few people about as possible. That is one reason why I have doubts that Stride was a Ripper victim, although I'm not married to these doubts.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The only "after 1" referring to the going indoors I read, is the one you added, Michael. I have no problems reading that. As I have no problems reading the part you ignore, which is, obviously (although it seems, not to you) "It was soon after one o'clock when I went out".

Intersting also is that you discard another version of a statement of a woman living at the same address the Daily News of 1 October:

"A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard the pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband. Thus, presuming that the body did not lay in the yard when the policeman passed-and it could hardly, it is thought, have escaped his notice-and presuming also that the assassin and his victim did not enter the yard while the woman stood at the door, it follows that they must have entered it within a minute or two before the arrival of the pony trap. If this be a correct surmise, it is easy to understand that the criminal may have been interrupted at his work. The man who drove the cart says he thinks it quite possible that after he had entered the yard the assassin may have fled out of it, having lurked in the gloom until a favourable moment arrived."

For the sake of clarity, the bold blue and black text appeared in the Daily News, whereas in the Evening News of the same date, only the blue text appeared.

The only slight alteration being that she heard the pony cart pass the house becomes she heard Diemschitz's pony cart pass the house.

The INTERVIEW WITH A NEIGHBOUR only appeared in the evening edition...

Even though the interview above is not quoted there's another interview with the a neighbour in the Evening News of 1 October:

"INTERVIEW WITH A NEIGHBOUR.
Some three doors from the gateway where the body of the first victim was discovered, I saw a clean, respectable-looking woman chatting with one or two neighbours. She was apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan, and formed a strong contrast to many of those around her. I got into conversation with her and found that she was one of the first on the spot.
TEN INCHES OF COLD STEEL.
"I was just about going to bed, sir, when I heard a call for the police. I ran to the door, and before I could open it I heard somebody say, 'Come out quick; there's a poor woman here that's had ten inches of cold steel in her.' I hurried out, and saw some two or three people standing in the gateway. Lewis, the man who looks after the Socialist Club at No. 40, was there, and his wife.
"Then I see a sight that turned me all sick and cold. There was the murdered woman a-lying on her side, with her throat cut across till her head seemed to be hanging by a bit of skin. Her legs was drawn up under her, and her head and the upper part of her body was soaked in blood. She was dressed in black as if she was in mourning for somebody.
MURDERED WITHIN SOUND OF MUSIC AND DANCING.
"Did you hear no sound of quarrelling, no cry for help?" I asked.
"Nothing of the sort, sir. I should think I must have heard it if the poor creature screamed at all, for I hadn't long come in from the door when I was roused, as I tell you, by that call for the police. But that was from the people as found the body. Mr. Lewis, who travels in cheap drapery things a bit now and again, had just drove into the yard when his horse shied at something that was lying in the corner. He thought 'twas a bundle of some kind till he got down from his cart and struck a light. Then he saw what it was and gave the alarm."
"Was the street quiet at the time?"
"Yes, there was hardly anybody moving about, except at the club. There was music and dancing going on there at the very time that that poor creature was being murdered at their very door, as one may say."
A MAN WITH A BLACK BAG!
" I suppose you did not notice a man and woman pass down the street while you were at the door?"
"No, sir. I think I should have noticed them if they had. Particularly if they'd been strangers, at that time o' night. I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand."
"Did you observe him closely, or notice anything in his appearance?"
"No, I didn't pay particular attention to him. He was respectably dressed, but was a stranger to me. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club., A good many young men goes there, of a Saturday night especially."

These 3 interviews/statments go together very well and, at the very least, suggest that they were one and the same woman, i.d. Mortimer. Only if you have an agenda, you might want to ignore (important parts) one or two of these articles. As you're doing.

If one would see them as all 3 coming from the same woman, one would get the picture of a woman who stood on her doorstep for 10 minutes from, say, 12:46 until about 12:56, then some 4 minutes later, as she was preparing for the night, heard a pony cart pass and shortly afterwards commotion and calls for police, after which she went out to see what was the matter and then found that she was one of the first on the crime spot, seeing only 2 or 3 people in the gateway.

But I guess that's just for the fringe. For people who really don't have even one theory...

To be fair, I think we all have one or two theories, it's just that some of those are conspiracy theories, whereas others are legitimate.

[Herlock Sholmes]

About five minutes to one o'clock this morning a youth about twenty years of age named Joseph Koster was accosted by a little boy who came running up to him as he was passing on the opposite side of 40 Berner street,

So much for my ‘costermonger’ suggestion.

[Herlock Sholmes]

That's fine, as long as you accept that the door is left open and unattended for a period of no more than about 5 minutes, and that by standing on her doorstep for minutes at a time, she cannot have too many concerns over security.

I can’t accept that anyone would leave intentionally leave their door open and unattended for any length of time. I can’t see how standing on her doorstep shows no concern for security? If she’s actually on the doorstep no one can walk inside.

A few issues here.

You can choose to stop the stopwatch at the point of 'Lipski!', but that doesn't stop the actors involved from moving.
What happens immediately after this point, that presumably causes negligible sound?

The only negligible sound wound have been of Schwartz walking away which which we can’t say that she must have heard.

If Stride is regarded as not being killed at this point, then Schwartz' account has not succeeded in taking the killer out of the club (regardless of it having that intention or not), nor indeed Liz, and furthermore if Fanny has locked-up for the night, she is not able to witness any comings or goings.

I understand? Why should we account for taking the killer out of the club?

Then there is Mortimer saying this...

I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by.

If you want to return Fanny inside for the night by 12:45, then how many minutes are implicit in 'just gone indoors'?

This is another debatable area of course. If, as she claimed, she went onto the doorstep just after 12.45 for 10 minutes then went back inside then this is a closer fit for the time gap for when she heard the commotion. But if we go for the earlier time (assuming PC Smith to have been more likely to have been correct about when he passed) then the gap before the commotion is 16/17/18 minutes.

By the way, if Fanny rushes outside in her pajamas every time there is a late night row at the club, she's obviously no shrinking violet.

True enough.

The Berner Street witnesses are a puzzle that I don’t think will ever be solved. I just don’t think that Mortimer can be used to ‘prove’ that Schwartz was never where he said that he was. Would someone really ‘witness’ a murderous attack if he hadn’t, knowing that this might raise suspicion against him? Plus he quoted a reason for being there which, if it wasn’t actually checked, then it was checkable. As were whoever he was with before he left on his journey who could have verified at least the approximate time that he set out (and knowing that passing along Berner Street was entirely logical.) Also, how could Schwartz know, if he wasn’t there, that there was someone standing outside Pipeman’s pub at that time or that there was someone on a doorstep opposite the club. He could so easily have been exposed as a liar. Then we have experienced police officers arresting someone on the strength of what he’d told them so he must have appeared creditable.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I just think that it’s unlikely that someone would have left their front door open especially in such an area.

That's fine, as long as you accept that the door is left open and unattended for a period of no more than about 5 minutes, and that by standing on her doorstep for minutes at a time, she cannot have too many concerns over security.

If we started a clock from a second before the quarrel and stopped it a second after the shout of ‘Lipski’ it would likely have been a matter of seconds so it’s not impossible or unlikely that Mortimer might have been at the rear of the house.

A few issues here.

You can choose to stop the stopwatch at the point of 'Lipski!', but that doesn't stop the actors involved from moving.
What happens immediately after this point, that presumably causes negligible sound?

If Stride is regarded as not being killed at this point, then Schwartz' account has not succeeded in taking the killer out of the club (regardless of it having that intention or not), nor indeed Liz, and furthermore if Fanny has locked-up for the night, she is not able to witness any comings or goings.

Then there is Mortimer saying this...

I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by.

If you want to return Fanny inside for the night by 12:45, then how many minutes are implicit in 'just gone indoors'?

By the way, if Fanny rushes outside in her pajamas every time there is a late night row at the club, she's obviously no shrinking violet.

[Herlock Sholmes]

. Informant.

Joseph Lave had recently arrived in England from the USA and was staying temporarily at the International Working Men's Educational Club at 40 Berner Street on the night of Elizabeth Stride's murder. In a statement to the press, he claimed that he had gone into Dutfield's Yard at 12.40am to get a breath of fresh air: "So far as I could see I was out in the street about half an hour, and while I was out nobody came into the yard, nor did I see anybody moving about there in a way to excite my suspicions."^[1]

It was so dark in the yard that he had to feel his way along the wall of the club to find his way back in.^[2]

Another example of why not to build theories on timings. No early body here. Ok he’s a bit out if he’s claiming to have gone back inside at 1.10 but this is way more damaging to any theory the body was found at 12.45. Which it very obviously wasn’t of course.

[Herlock Sholmes]

On the subject of these discrepancies in statements it’s noticeable that Blackwell in The Star said that she had a ‘box’ of cachous in her hand but at the Inquest they became a small packet of cachous wrapped in tissue paper. Now no one would accuse Blackwell of having anything to hide would they?

....

Also, I’ll ask those who’ve read more different reports than I have, isn’t it strange that this small packet of cachous gets mentioned so often (unless that’s just an incorrect impression on my part - which it might be) In her partially closed hand which was near to the wall in this unlit passageway? Could it be the case that some witnesses were simply repeating something that they heard from others? And if that’s possibly the case doesn’t possibly this call into question other things that were said?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thanks a bunch, Mr. Sholmes!

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Was there a ‘Joseph Koster’ or was this an error because he’d described Diemschutz as a ‘Coster’ short for Costermonger?

There is a complete alternative discovery story in the Irish Times:

About five minutes to one o'clock this morning a youth about twenty years of age named Joseph Koster was accosted by a little boy who came running up to him as he was passing on the opposite side of 40 Berner street, used by the International Socialist Club, and told him that a woman was lying in the gateway next to the club, with her throat cut. Koster immediately ran across the road and saw a woman lying on her side in the gateway leading into Dutfield's stabling and van premises. The gate which is a large wooden one, was partly opened, and the woman lying partly in the opening and on the street. He immediately roused the neighbours, and by the aid of a candle it was seen that the woman's throat was cut open very nearly from one ear to the other, and her hips were drawn up as if she had suffered sharp pain. She was dressed in black and appeared to be in mourning. She wore a black bonnet, elastic sided boots, and dark stockings. To her breast was a small bouquet of flowers, and in her left hand she had a small packet of scented cachous.

At some point, it became known that this story was false, and that point may have been the interview with Heshburg around 6am.

Lewis, who is now found to have been on the spot rather than Koster, is the steward at the Socialist Club at No. 40, and in addition he travels in some drapery goods, the purchase of which, according to his friends necessitated his attending last night's market. He seems to have returned home about a quarter to 1, and to have proceeded up the entry which, though not narrow, is a very dark one, for the purpose of putting up his pony and trap.

Heshburg knew Koster, it would seem, and he knew the Joseph Koster story was false. How?